Hello Everyone, A question to ponder?

If we were to all get together for a weekend where would be the best location? Somewhere the major airlines service? Somewhere not to expensive?(admit it were all a bunch of cheapskates) And somewhere were a high percentage of members would be able to attend.
I'll throw out some locations that I can think of , Las Vegas?, St. Louis?, Denver? Pheonix?
Chicago? New York?

Also when would be a good time for all and who would take charge of making this happen. It's a hope I have will happen. My Mother used to tell me "no time like the present" another one of her wisdoms was "Those who won't stoop to pick up a penny will never have a dollar" I can't walk past a penny lying there without thinking of that statement. Enough memories, I am game to be on a comittee to plan a reunion. Any helpers please email me.

Your soon to be seen Danny Boy!!!!!

A convention of sorts... I am a shriner, I love conventions... Motorcycles on the diving board???
I have a few contacts in the entertainment industry, if needed... Celebs just love benefits....
My vote would be St, Louis (mid america) May 2005.
It has been my experience, these things take time to organize and events thrown together in haste are usually flops, unless you have really informed and dedicated organizers.
Darrell

What a great idea. A city where alot of airlines fly direct to would be a good bet.Vegas or Phoenix are my choices. And I should (I hope) be eating real food by May 2005.

Phoenix or Vegas probably have the cheapest airfare as well.

Phoenix sounds good to me, although I`ve not been to Vegas...........i had also mentioned to Bob the possibility of approaching Angel Flight for folks who don`t have the money to fly commercial.........Angel Flight East certainly knew Frank and I.......it`s a possibility they could toss around..........I`d like to see it this year, could we pull it off say in 6 months? Weather would be great in Phoenix.....anyway, I`m aboard, and can`t wait.......Dee

Phoenix & Vegas are both desert climates and have almost identical weather. Phoenix can get a little hotter during the dry period - up to 118 degrees. The worst time of the year is actually during the monsoon season from around July through October. The hot season starts around May.

The Vegas advantage would be the gamblers specials for transportation and reasonable hotel expenses - as long as a major convention isn't in town at the same time like CES or something.

Either Vegas or St. Louis would be good, I grew up in St. Louis so know the place intimately, such as price point hotels with good banquet facitilites. Also where to get good fried catfish and hush puppies and some great Italian food.

Downside is STL isn't a major airline hub anymore since the demise of TWA and may not be as easily accessible by air as you would think.

Vegas is fairly well served by airlines, and has a wide variety of hotels, trick is to get a decent price. Desert climate may be difficult for those of us whose saliva glands have been fried.

October is good both places, not so hot in Vegas, not cold yet in St. Louis.

Bob

My vote`s for Vegas, haven`t been there, lived in Arizona for year, I`ve already talked my daughter into the trip. i think we need a bright lights fun place......who knows we might see ELVIS..................Dee

Would this reunion be something for families or just for "us"? I would love to see it happen and am excited at the idea of meeting all of you.

I`m hoping it`s for families, since I don`t want to fly alone........I mean we have caregivers and spouses, I just figured families were included..but at this point we need to figure out how many are planning on coming, some kind of general figure to work with........I`m really excited too, can`t wait...........Dee

Aha! I just signed on and guess where I live? About 10 miles SE of Vegas! Sounds like a go to me. Gary has an excellent point tho......if there is a major convention here (CES, rodeo) there are no rooms to be had. Be glad to help!
Judy U

Sounds like Vegas is getting the overwhelming vote. Of course I would imagine family/caregivers, etc would be welcome, almost a necessity for some I imagine. Otherwise what's the point?

Doesn't have to be Vegas proper though I would think, maybe Henderson (suburb of) maybe not so expensive. I might be wrong but I think what I call the first tier hotels like MGM Grand, NY NY are kind of pricey. Hotels like the old Stardust not so bad. Remembering that some folks are on a tight budget these days.

Judy, sounds like you and my mom are almost neighbors, she's in Bullhead City these days.
Don't ask.

So for argument's sake, lets narrow down to say October in Vegas. Any conventions etc then? Any way to find out?
Bob

Always wanted to go to Vegas! Now I have an excuse!! Knowing how much time most of us that have survived were out of work going through treatments a less expensive hotel would be a nice idea. Just hope it has a pool! Look forward to meeting all of you! Put us down for 4! - Kris

Wow, it`s so great to see this taking shape, can`t you just feel the excitment in the air.....with all so many of us have been through, we should be able to pull this off with flying colors !!!!!!! Look out Vegas here we come !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dee

Vegas gets my vote too - I've always wanted to go but... I do recall hearing that Octber is a big convention month in Vegas.

Ok Vegas but why not January... My treatment should be done and the hotels should be cheaper.. and the flights as well...
Helen

Ok, sounds like Vegas it is. Date not too certain yet.

If anyone wants to volunteer to do some research on prices, hotels, or if there area any conventions/what would be a good time, it would be a great help.

In the meantime I"ll see if there's anyone with casino/hotel connections I can put a "lean" on for some good deals.

Bob

I believe that CES (Consumer Electronic Show) has their convention in Vegas in early January - that's a really big show they probably book every room!

Vegas sounds like a good location. We could stay
outside of Vegas if need be. Bob (jetagehobo)has offered his services as Chairman. I want a part in making this happen and Judy has offered to help also. We will have to send out notices of a range of dates and pick one. I will contact Bob and see how we can make this happen.

Dan

Hi Bob,
I did some checking, and if you promise not to appoint me chair, I will not ask why your mother is in Bull Head City. The Gaming Expo is here 10/5-10/7. AARP is mtg here 10/14-10/17 Yes I am going! The rodeo is sold out from year to year and it is in Dec.
I got some prices for the first weekend in Oct. Quotes for 2 people at a variety of hotels. Range is Sahara @ 89.95 to Bellagio @249.00 per night. Downtown the Golden Nugget is 146.00/nt. I live in Henderson..the Holiday Inn Express is sold out and Green Valley Ranch Station Casino is $250.00!
Problem with Henderson is transportation as you are about 10 miles from the Strip. Not necessary to rent cars as there are plenty of shuttles to airport and cabs on the Strip when you stay there.
Just being helpful here!

Anyone can look up prices.......go to vegas.com and have fun!
Judy U

Thanks Judy, Safe bet we won't be doing Bellagio.

Cheap weekend deals in LV are pretty dear these days, all the people from LA head out on Friday night, come back on Sunday. I-15 from Barstow on in is a parking lot on Sunday afternoons.

Bob

Just a quick thought - used to book meetings for my company. If you call and give the hotels a number of rooms (and even a lunch in a meeting room for a number of people) they will give you better rates. This is done through the sales office not online or reservations.
Just everyone individually booking rooms will cost a lot more money and probably have us spread all over town.
My two cents -
Dinah
(and yes I will volunteer to help...my husband and I just had a conversation about trying to put something together in San Antonio or Dallas. So how timely is this? It is a lot of work, but we can do it and save money if it becomes a structered gathering)

one of the southern states in January.. only requirements.. an airport and a hotel...We can make our own fun... Where is empty in January in the USA?
Helen

A weekend in Dallas could be really cheap. Rental cars on weekends are often under $20 a day because of the large inventories for business travelers during the week. Ditto on rooms. Just a thought.

Ed

Okay, I hereby volunteer to scout out a hotel location. I will check Vegas first and find also what months will be the least expensive. I believe summer is least expensive in Vegas. (also very hot) January people are still trying to get away from cold weather and the rates stay high.
I will start in Vegas and then move to Dallas?
I'll need some inforamtion first, so I guess I will start a new thread to gather info so I can talk to hotels.

Does anybody mind if I do this??

I will be away from the computer till Thursday afternoon. Then I'll check this thread to see if anyone minds if I start this process. If no one minds then we'll start a new thread with head counts and such. There are many things to consider to a "First Annual OCF Convention". We can post about them as we go.

Take care all,
Dinah

Hi, Dinah, works for me...I volunteered too, yeh, right, I can`t even organize my brain!!!! But I told Bob I follow directions very well.....First Annual, here we come........Hugs, Dee

I think we are losing track of where the cost is going to be. The hotel room will probably be shared by at least two people so doean't necessarily have to be dirt cheap. The airfare is going to be the killer if you pick someplace like Dallas. I just did a quick check for Newark to Dallas and it is $487. Trust me for that kind of money and usually a lot less, I can go to Europe in October. East to West coast fares are generally cheapest unless you go to someplace like Vegas or Orlando that wants your business.

As to best time, I personally think summer is bad. I spend a lot on money to rent a place at the shore May to October so am not about to fly off to someplace else during those months. Other members will have their own vacation plans that will keep them from coming. I think Jnauary or February are good but you have to work around the holidays in those months. March might even be good.

I think we need to get an idea of the number of rooms we are going to need for how many nights and a list of what airports people are flying from if we are going to try to negociate a package deal. I think you can usually get some kind of a package if you have at least 6 people.

Other ideas, not cheap. A cruise, Lake Tahoe, Toronto, Mexico, San Francisco, some carribbean island, northern Florida which is cheap because it is not warm in January.

Just some thoughts. I think Vegas is probably cheapest as long as we can stay away from the tables.

Eileen

Dinah,
I do alot of traveling with my gyms, making arrangements for close to 200 people at times. The Embassy Suites and the Marriott motels are the best to deal with. Embassy Suites is tops in my book, all the rooms are suites and the price was a range of $109-$130 per night. Each room had two double beds in the bedroom with a Queen size pull out sofa in the living room area. The cooked to order FREE continental breakfast was a HUGE bonus and no parking fees were also wonderful. Just some suggestions.
Minnie

I would love to join in on the fun with my husband too, so count us in. Las Vegas is a dream of his yet to be fulfilled!

I`ve been wondering about New Orleans......lot of magic afoot..........Hugs, Dee

I didn't suggest New Orleans because I didn't think it was easy to fly to. When I tried to find an airfare to there from PHL or Newark earlier this year, all went through Atlanta and cost a lot of money. Then last night I was watching TV and SOUTHWEST had an add for $99 each way airfares from Phila to New Orleans, Houston and several other places. I'd love to go to New Orleans, but not in the summer. My company has had its convention there in late April right before the jazz festival so I suspect it might be cheaper at that time.

I could handle a little magic.

Eileen

My mother and her husband lived in New Orleans for 7 years together, he was born and raised there. His family owns one of the historical boat houses that is right along side the Mississippi River. New Orleans would be an awesome place to host this reunion also. My brother and his wife still live there so we would have a contact person to go and scout out motels for us, see if they are dives or somewhere we would stay with our families.

Hi All

At this point I would like to suggest that the erstaz "comitee" all get together off-board and discuss the options, then get prices, tentative dates and come back with a solution. There's a lot of good places to have this each with it's own merits and disadvantages.

Appreciate everyone's input, needed that so we're not flying blind as far as everyone's wishes and popular consensus.

Probably be a couple of weeks before we get back with a firm plan, some comittee members having computer problems, some out of town.

Thanks for your help.
Bob

Hi, as far as airfare, I just talked to Angel Flight, who told me Southwest Airlines will fly people in need, round trip, once a year........something to look into......anyway, it`s good publicity for any of them.......i`m going to look into corporate jets, and Angel Flight, if they come up with any ideas will let me know...........i figure, where there`s a will there`s a way...................Dee

I have a very dear friend that is the office manager for Angel Flight here in Dallas (Angel Flight Southcentral) and as we develop a list of people needing some assistance, I will gladly get his attention. I think it would be fun to contact someone like American or Southwest to try to hype some PR for them. Let's work on the who, what, when and where stuff and we can send the OCF Army out. I can a feel a plan coming together...there is music (and magic) in the air.

Ed

Check out http://www.aircareall.org/

When we went to Vegas in September last year we stayed at the Excalibur on the strip, across the street from the Luxor, for $59.00/night.

I would love to have you all come to San Francisco - the most expensive place on earth -not! Hotel room prices here will make you faint. Food's not cheap either.

Southwest has $99 fares all over the place it's the lodging and food costs that drive the costs up.

New Orleans does sound intriging - I've never been there.

Did anything ever materialize about this "get together"..?

Just curious....

If not, (or even if so), let's plan another...

We would welcome anyone to our resort, but it is about 2.5 hours from the nearest major airports (SFO & OAK)

Either way, it'd be nice to have something to look forward to after treatment, maybe 3 or 4 months out for everyone to have time to plan.

Michael,

Although I was not a member then, my understanding is that some members met in Las Vegas last November. Not 100% sure when or where.

I would be very interested in getting to meet some members and would welcome a trip as long as there is enough time to block out my schedule.

Jerry

It was in September last year and we had about 20 folks, including caregivers.

Dinah was very instrumental in organizing this and she passed away not very long ago after a long and ferocious fight. She was too ill to attend.

My gosh how time has flown. We should be well into planning the Second Annual meet! It was a very enjoyable time meeting folks. It was in Vegas and at the Imperial Palace. At the time we kinda thought we would have future get-togethers at other venues so that travel would be an even burden on everyone. Gary had pictures posted for a while Perhaps they are still available?

Hi guys, saw this up near the top and thought it was about a new get together. Was at the Imperial Palace last May, half expected to see Danny at the blackjack tables near the dealertainers. Food no better at the buffets though. And the lines no shorter at the front desk.

Bob

Do we have any hearty souls out there that want to start on planning a second reunion? It was a good time last year. We found out the people we were talking to on the board were even better people than anyone could expect.

Hello Bob, Missed seeing your input on the boards.

Danny Boy

What do you guys want to look for in a location?
Big-Busy-Bustling? or Quiet-Laid back-peaceful? What was the agenda for the last one? Amy

As a former pilot who volunteered my time and aircraft to fly doctors and dentists to Mexico etc. to treat the underprivileged, I can tell you that most organizations like Angel Flight etc. are set up to see that patients can get to appropriate treatment and not to reunions. They are on volunteer time and donations just like us. As a rule they have more demand than they can handle. Given that, I think that using their resources to ferry individuals to a reunion for survivors may not get them the type of publicity that they are looking for, or which generates needed donations for their really important work, getting patients to treatment.

As to a location, I would go to the Mendocino coast in a heartbeat. But for those who like the action and shows of a Vegas venue it would seem too

Brian, I did not see Cherokee Village, Arkansas on your list. Amy

Hey....I did my time in Arkansas, Ingrid and I were married in Little Rock at a friend's home.

I think that we chose Vegas because it was relatively cheap to fly to and the room prices were very good. There were lots of shows, gambling for those who indulge, Hoover Dam, etc. but also hoards of people, smoking and drinking everywhere.

Hawaii sounds like a plan to me.

Hey I'm up for Hawaii! The Big Island has lots of variety and weather with plenty to see. - Kris

I vote for Hawaii.

Danny Boy

I understand that Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays does group packages also. While we are partial to Maui since we have friends there...with the exception of a couple of the small islands where you really just want to get away from it all and there isn't a lot going on, we would go anywhere.... just as long as there is surf. Hawaii and Oahu have the most

Brian, I would absolutely LOVE to go....please give more information to us...Thanks, Carol

I just checked out the PHH site, the prices are very good. Danny Boy, I am with you! Hawaii.....YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!It would be awesome!!!!Carol

We would have to get on it since the season starts soon. I've never been to Maui and I have friends there as well. My wife hasn't been to the islands at all. Previously I've been to Oahu and Kauai.

Does anybody want to pick a date so that we can start to make travel plans and assorted arrangements? Gary, do you know when the high season starts, that might be helpful in this process. - Sheldon

2005-2006 Season Dates
Season dates may vary and are subject to change without notice, but generally run as follows:

Regular Season: January 4, 2005 - April 30, 2005

Value Season: May 1, 2005 - June 16, 2005

Mid-Season: June 17, 2005 - August 31, 2005

Value Season: September 1, 2005 - November 18, 2005

Regular Season: November 19, 2005 - November 27, 2005

Value Season: November 28, 2005 - December 16, 2005

Winter Holidays: December 17, 2005 - January 5, 2006

Sheldon,

I found these dates on one of the Hotel sites. It seems fairly close to the dates I used this year when I went to Maui. I arrived on 4/16/05 and that was the start of "value" season.

Glenn

Thank you for the info, Glenn. Carol

Hi,
Well, when I originally read Brian's suggestions, I was hoping for the Mendocino coast. Sounded marvelous and I could visit some friends in San Fransico area that I haven't seen in decades. My second and third choices would have been New Orleans (don't think so now) and the Napa valley or even Oregon. I love the beach.

When I mentioned Hawaii to Charlie (he has no desire to go there) he just groaned and said how much is that airfare going to cost? I did check out the website, but do you really think we can get something that cheap in light of the recent disaster with Katrina? I think airfares are about to be out of sight.

Brian - If we are going to do this someplace, what dates do you have open? Another thought. We have Michael and several other patients under treatment currently that might like to attend. We really need to know who is likely to attend and how far, how much money they are willing to spend. Hawaii is pushing it.

Just my thoughts. Not certain I can throw this one together over night like the last time, but wil try if necessary.

Take care,
Eileen

I understand that you can do Maui for 160 bucks round trip if you are willing to fly standby. Hawaii is actually a lot cheaper than you think. $1278 for 2 including hotel for 7 days from LAX or $1310 from SFO.

No one should plan this around me. My schedule book is so thick with meetings, seminars, screening events, and speaking engagements that it looks like someone painted every page black. Also we have a fund raiser event tentatively scheduled at the home of Blythe Danner in Santa Monica in the middle of December, which would be prime time to go to the islands. Airfares are not cheap anywhere, but if you look at the packages on the site that I recommended, I think you will be hard pressed to find a cheaper round trip to anyplace half as interesting. It was just an idea and from the thread so far seems like a place that people are interested in going to.... Tell Charlie that we are going to fix you up with a young Hawaiian beach boy who is going to see that your umbrella drinks don't run out.......

Hi guys,
Brian, that sounds like a plan. However,
I still have a full time job and am flying in from the east coast as are saxx, minnie and several other people. Eleven hour flights for weekend trips are not my favorite unless I'm going to stay a week or more. I think you should start a new thread and find out who is interested and and when they are available. Considering the current situation with gas prices after the Katrina, no one will be able to afford the air fare for months.

Sounds like fun but I would still prefer California for this one.

Eileen

As I have said even when the last get together was planned, this is about all of you, and it isn't really an OCF function per se, but an opportunity to meet in person those that we have come to care about here. It isn't my call where it is held, and if I am available I will make every effort to come to where ever you all decide.

Hey Eileen, I mentioned Hawaii to my husband and he too groaned and asked what the air fare would be. It is sort of a running joke cuz I have always wanted to visit Hawaii and he has always said we cannot afford it....San Francisco sounds great......I don't know....just adding some thoughts. We will be traveling from Baltimore, gas prices are unbelievable right now, don't know how that will affect cost of flights. Carol

Given the horrible situation in the gulf states, and the tragedy that this is turning out to be, I wanted to say that when I posted earlier that New Orleans was too wet, the extent of this tragedy was not known. I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread sometime in the future to think my comment insensitive or making light of what is truly a disaster of epic proportions.

It truly is a horrible situation, makes me feel selfish to even think about a pleasure trip anywhere at this point in time. I am praying for those folks, oh my, it is so sad. Carol

As a former pilot who volunteered my time and aircraft to fly doctors and dentists to Mexico etc. to treat the underprivileged, I can tell you that most organizations like Angel Flight etc. are set up to see that patients can get to appropriate treatment and not to reunions. They are on volunteer time and donations just like us. As a rule they have more demand than they can handle. Given that, I think that using their resources to ferry individuals to a reunion for survivors may not get them the type of publicity that they are looking for, or which generates needed donations for their really important work, getting patients to treatment.

As to a location, I would go to the Mendocino coast in a heartbeat. But for those who like the action and shows of a Vegas venue it would seem too

Brian, I did not see Cherokee Village, Arkansas on your list. Amy

Hey....I did my time in Arkansas, Ingrid and I were married in Little Rock at a friend's home.

I think that we chose Vegas because it was relatively cheap to fly to and the room prices were very good. There were lots of shows, gambling for those who indulge, Hoover Dam, etc. but also hoards of people, smoking and drinking everywhere.

Hawaii sounds like a plan to me.

Hey I'm up for Hawaii! The Big Island has lots of variety and weather with plenty to see. - Kris

I vote for Hawaii.

Danny Boy

I understand that Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays does group packages also. While we are partial to Maui since we have friends there...with the exception of a couple of the small islands where you really just want to get away from it all and there isn't a lot going on, we would go anywhere.... just as long as there is surf. Hawaii and Oahu have the most

Brian, I would absolutely LOVE to go....please give more information to us...Thanks, Carol

I just checked out the PHH site, the prices are very good. Danny Boy, I am with you! Hawaii.....YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!It would be awesome!!!!Carol

We would have to get on it since the season starts soon. I've never been to Maui and I have friends there as well. My wife hasn't been to the islands at all. Previously I've been to Oahu and Kauai.

Does anybody want to pick a date so that we can start to make travel plans and assorted arrangements? Gary, do you know when the high season starts, that might be helpful in this process. - Sheldon

2005-2006 Season Dates
Season dates may vary and are subject to change without notice, but generally run as follows:

Regular Season: January 4, 2005 - April 30, 2005

Value Season: May 1, 2005 - June 16, 2005

Mid-Season: June 17, 2005 - August 31, 2005

Value Season: September 1, 2005 - November 18, 2005

Regular Season: November 19, 2005 - November 27, 2005

Value Season: November 28, 2005 - December 16, 2005

Winter Holidays: December 17, 2005 - January 5, 2006

Sheldon,

I found these dates on one of the Hotel sites. It seems fairly close to the dates I used this year when I went to Maui. I arrived on 4/16/05 and that was the start of "value" season.

Glenn

Thank you for the info, Glenn. Carol

Hi,
Well, when I originally read Brian's suggestions, I was hoping for the Mendocino coast. Sounded marvelous and I could visit some friends in San Fransico area that I haven't seen in decades. My second and third choices would have been New Orleans (don't think so now) and the Napa valley or even Oregon. I love the beach.

When I mentioned Hawaii to Charlie (he has no desire to go there) he just groaned and said how much is that airfare going to cost? I did check out the website, but do you really think we can get something that cheap in light of the recent disaster with Katrina? I think airfares are about to be out of sight.

Brian - If we are going to do this someplace, what dates do you have open? Another thought. We have Michael and several other patients under treatment currently that might like to attend. We really need to know who is likely to attend and how far, how much money they are willing to spend. Hawaii is pushing it.

Just my thoughts. Not certain I can throw this one together over night like the last time, but wil try if necessary.

Take care,
Eileen

I understand that you can do Maui for 160 bucks round trip if you are willing to fly standby. Hawaii is actually a lot cheaper than you think. $1278 for 2 including hotel for 7 days from LAX or $1310 from SFO.

No one should plan this around me. My schedule book is so thick with meetings, seminars, screening events, and speaking engagements that it looks like someone painted every page black. Also we have a fund raiser event tentatively scheduled at the home of Blythe Danner in Santa Monica in the middle of December, which would be prime time to go to the islands. Airfares are not cheap anywhere, but if you look at the packages on the site that I recommended, I think you will be hard pressed to find a cheaper round trip to anyplace half as interesting. It was just an idea and from the thread so far seems like a place that people are interested in going to.... Tell Charlie that we are going to fix you up with a young Hawaiian beach boy who is going to see that your umbrella drinks don't run out.......

Hi guys,
Brian, that sounds like a plan. However,
I still have a full time job and am flying in from the east coast as are saxx, minnie and several other people. Eleven hour flights for weekend trips are not my favorite unless I'm going to stay a week or more. I think you should start a new thread and find out who is interested and and when they are available. Considering the current situation with gas prices after the Katrina, no one will be able to afford the air fare for months.

Sounds like fun but I would still prefer California for this one.

Eileen

As I have said even when the last get together was planned, this is about all of you, and it isn't really an OCF function per se, but an opportunity to meet in person those that we have come to care about here. It isn't my call where it is held, and if I am available I will make every effort to come to where ever you all decide.

Hey Eileen, I mentioned Hawaii to my husband and he too groaned and asked what the air fare would be. It is sort of a running joke cuz I have always wanted to visit Hawaii and he has always said we cannot afford it....San Francisco sounds great......I don't know....just adding some thoughts. We will be traveling from Baltimore, gas prices are unbelievable right now, don't know how that will affect cost of flights. Carol

Given the horrible situation in the gulf states, and the tragedy that this is turning out to be, I wanted to say that when I posted earlier that New Orleans was too wet, the extent of this tragedy was not known. I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread sometime in the future to think my comment insensitive or making light of what is truly a disaster of epic proportions.

It truly is a horrible situation, makes me feel selfish to even think about a pleasure trip anywhere at this point in time. I am praying for those folks, oh my, it is so sad. Carol