Mausmish

I forget that for those without formal training in rhetoric, logic and syllyogisms that what is obvious to me needs to explicated in excruciating detail. Yes, I know how condescending that sounds, but it's the same for my quantum physicist friends in dealing with homeopaths etc. I imagine as a mathematician, when you see studies like the SLK accupunture one where the analyst takes the 1-10 pain scale level we all are used to and then makes it a 1 to 100 for his purposes even though the patients in the underlaying studies used the 1-10. It's not as newsworthy to say the patient saw a half point drop in pain from 4 to three and a half as it is to say the patient had a five point pain drop but it's also not how honest mathematicians fudge figures
But in answer to your question, most posters will not read the full studies but I link to them anyway. It's no secret to anyone who has studied martial arts that there are linkages of muscles and nerves where pressure can produce pain. When you have unnamed western physicians (like Dr. OZ or Bernie Segal? or other quackademics hold a "view", that is not "a valid scientific study or any competent not faked research".. Your quote is not a contrasting statement, it's just validation of my point. I know the woo woo all like words to mean whatever they want to mean, but this is not even close. At least you read the whole article, but alas fell victim to their clever illogic. Plus making up a whole new justification that just ignores the history and theory of accupunture's Qi essential basis, means we are no longer talking about accupuncture but about finally realizing that actual human touch and massage does stimulate blood flow etc .
It's crazy that woo woo like accupuncture gets insurance coverage and theraputic massage does not, especially for cancer patients.
Charm

Lefty

Would you mind linking to the exact SLK study you are referring to? It does not seem to be the metaanalysis one unless it is one of the underlaying studies not even done by SLK>
I've found about a dozen SLK studies, mostly relying upon now discredited Chinese studies , but I don't want to waste time beating a dead horse. If you do mean the trashy one that's in the paper, it will take some time to go through the footnotes to see what unreliable study they cited.
Thanks
Charm

Ana

Relief is good. One of my objections to the NIH and CAM funding these type of studies is that means less money for real research projects on HPV and treating mucositis. It's a limited pot of money and I've seen Brian fight hard to try and get some for oral cancer research so when I see it wasted on accupuncture meta analysis fake studies, I get mad.
Charm

Charm,

You misread my post. I didn't refer to having read any article - I simply completed the missing half of the quote directly from Mayo's website. I despise the way the media handles science, and your argument sounded disturbingly like their sensationalist rhetoric. You named a well known and respected source to get everyone's attention and presented a partial quote that implied their support for your own extreme viewpoint when, in fact, the site is decidedly neutral on the subject. Despite my wanting to remain uninvolved in this pointless argument, I was too angry to let that go unchallenged. I have no strong feelings either way on the subject of acupuncture but took exception to your presentation.

I fell victim to nothing. I simply agreed to try something that my doctor recommended. I was there anyway and figured it would do no harm although I had the expectation that it wouldn't work. Here at OCF, I made no claims about the validity of the study or procedure in general. I reported anecdotally my personal experience.

Don't presume to know me, my formal training, or how I process and use information. What you know about me is exactly as much or as little as I choose to reveal.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery in your current cancer battle. I mean that sincerely. You've been through a lot.

Karen

Karen.

Got it. You revealed that you never read any of the articles. You got angry and upset because I put one excerpt from the Mayo Clinic 5 pages on accupunture without putting the next sentence on that one page.
Even though that next sentence starts off In contrast and explains the Western physicians don't share the view of the Chinese on how Chinese medicine works. Then you lectured me on the rules of logic, etc. and stressed you had some kind of mathematical ability (I won't presume it's statistical analysis per your request)
You have no strong feelings on accupuncture but you posted two long posts including this one claiming my viewpoint is extreme. Oh, and this whole discussion on accupunture is pointless. BTW read my post again and see that the falling victim to illogic was your assertion that leaving off the last sentence .in contrast" somehow invalidated my points.
I do have an opinion on how you process information based on your posts here but in light of your ending sentence of best wishes for my recovery, I'll be equally civil.
I'd hate to be on the receiving end of your posts on a subject that you actually have "strong feelings for" or actual non anecdotal knowledge, it'd be fierce.
Charm

Actually bottom line - for some people it works - is it a placebo effect? Is it real? Truthfully I don't care - we're all individual organsims, all wired differently - what is "normal" for almost everyone else may not be normal for me, or joe blow two houses down. If we never experiment in trying different things - we become stagnant - medical science doesn't advance and for that matter either does anything else. Looking into other treatments to solve problems is pivotal to finding a cure, for pretty much everything. If I've tried all the standard treatments for something and nothing has worked then I'm going to try non standard treatments - its that simple. If I find something that works then I will stick with it. Just because you don't respond to it doesn't mean that I as an individual won't - (this is never more apparent than in our medical system of today. You can take two people with the exact same cancer, same location, same staging, same everything and one will die and one won't despite having the exact same treatment - its all very ambiguous. ) I do believe in doing whatever you can, to return to optimal health. Take the best that medical science has to offer, and once that is done do more - educate yourself - try different things - Not to the detriment of your health of course. And always discuss it with your dr, so as to know whether they consider it counterproductive to your health - with an explanation.
I gave acupuncture a go because I personally though why the hell not? Isnt going to Hurt and my insurance covered it. And It worked for me. People often make the mistake of thinking - its crap as it didn't work for me, (doctors are notorious for doing this and are often surprised when something works for one person out of 1000 but the truth is it did work for that one person but they discount it as a fluke - what if it wasn't? what if that person was just wired differently from the majority?) but to me throwing all the taxpayers money into ONLY trying to develop new drugs is very linear thinking)
Anyway it gave it a shot, it helped and I personally am pleased. If standing on their head singing queen works for someone else I say more power to them.

I believe that there are at least two Sloan-Kettering trials, "Acupuncture for Dry Mouth: Point Increases Saliva Production and Brain Activity" conducted by Diane Joswick in 2008 and "Acupuncture for Pain and Dysfunction After Neck Dissection: Results of a Randomized Controlled Trial" published by Pfister, et. al in 2010.

I'm not certain about the double blind source, I'll keep looking for it. I've read so much lately and chemo-brain makes my memory faulty. However the Mayo trial called "Randomized Study of Electroacupuncture for Chronic Radiation-Induced Xerosomia in Patients with Head and Neck Cancer" uses a double blind with sham electroaccupuncture. The trial was reported as open for patients in 2010 and I haven't been able to find the results. I tried contacting the principal researcher, Dr. Michele Halyard, but she never got back to me.

The MDAnderson pilot study is called "Acupuncture for Radiation-induced Xerostomia in Patients with Cancer". I did communicate with the lead investigator, Kay Garcia, and she informed me that the study was a small, non-randomized study but that they have a large, randomized study underway.

The Brazilian study is called: "Acupuncture for the prevention of radiation-induced xerostomia in patients with head and neck cancer" and was conducted by the Department of Stomatology, School of Dentistry, University of Sao Paulo. It si published in "Brazilian Oral Research" vol,25 no.2 Sao Pauolo Mar/Apr 2011.

There is the article called "Treatment of Xerostomia in Prosthetic Patients Using Local Acupuncture Points on the Face" in the "Journal of Contemporary Dental Practice", Nov 15, 2004 by Wang, et. al. Dentists. Also a study by Blom and Lundberg published in the journal "Oral Diseases" 2000 called "Long-term follow-up of patients treated with acupuncture for xerostomia and the influence of additional treatment".

No, I am not an expert in evaluating the results of clinical trials but I assume that the researchers at renown centers such as Sloan-Kettering, MDAnderson and Mayo are, and, further, that they would not get funding for their research if it wasn't reviewed and found to be scientifically valid.

Cheryl, what, or whose, protocol did you use? Thanks, John

Hi - I see a doctor of naturopathic medicine here in Mississauga - Ontario (he actually has his doctorate) - his wife is also a researcher at the top cancer facility in Canada - my focus wasn't particularly on my saliva though he did stab me in my glandular area under my chin, and despite being a little dry at night now for the most part during the day i have enough saliva to wet my lips and speak without difficulty. he also broke up my scar tissue all along my neck dissection area, returned blood flow to that area, and the area on either side of my jaw which helped loosen up the jaw. He stabbed me on either side of my nose and forehead (said to help with taste as well) and on my hands (for taste) my neck now is loose and probably 95-98 % and still numb in areas but thankfully it's soft and not stiff anymore.

LeftyS7

Thanks for the names of the studies. According to the radio and TV and even phone messages from my power company, it looks like the high winds from "Frankenstorm" Sandy are going to knock out my electricity sometime tonight or tomorrow. We are on a sub sub grid with only a few houses so our restoration priority is at the botton. (And that's fine, I'm all for getting power back first to hospitals, nursing homes, then main grids with hundreds of people - sucks for me, but it's the fair thing to do)

So it may be a while before I get to those as the time with power I'm making scans of my insurance forms to send to my hospital which while it's a great medical provider has totally screwed up my transition to Medicare as a primary provider and blue cross Blue shield as secondary. Of course the switchover date was right before the first Cyberknife but after the others. Same with chemo, what a me

If it turns out that acupuncture does work for dry mouth , I'd be happy. Heck, even a broken stopped watch is right twice a day so for our subset, an otherwise placebo procedure may surprise me. I'm still troubled by the fact that even the "neutral" Mayo clinic 5 page summary admits that it works best for those who believe in it. You don't have to believe in radiation or chemo or surgery or prescription drugs for them to work. Thanks again for taking the time to just gather the information without poking me. Trust me, it gets a better response.
Charm