Hi guys
well at long last after an 18 month three stage enquiry Robins dentist has his day in court tomorrow.The hearing is to run over three days,and i travel down to London tomorrow,and give my evidence on Tuesday morning.
Robs brother was supposed to come with me,instead of which he can be added to the list of this mans victims,a fact i intend to make the court aware of.
David,robins cousin is meeting me in London, and the verdict will be announced on Wednesday.
For any of you who are interested i have posted a link to the GDC web site.You will see up and coming hearings,and you click on the date and the name Dharmeca.The charges ,which include some additional ones the GDC have added ,can be seen there,and the results will also be published.
Without this foundation,and the advice and support i have received over the last year and a half i would never have had the courage to see this through,but i am doing this for all of us who have suffered at the hands of ill informed careless so called professionals.
love and thanks
liz
http://www.gdc-uk.org [url=http://www.gdc-uk.org/General+public/Fitness+to+Practise+Hearings/Current+and+upcoming+hearings.htm][/url] uk
All the very best for the next 3 days in court Liz.
I am sure you will be just fine on Tuesday.
Will be following the link to see how it is going.
Love
Gabriele
Liz, wishing you the best with your case. Thanks for giving the link.
Help me. I went to the web site and typed in Dharmeca and it didn't find me anything. What am I missing?
Good luck and as we say in America, "Knock em dead!!", now Liz not literally.
Liz, It was strange to log on and read this because I had just (within the past 5 minutes) been wondering about your court case. Please let us know how it goes, I will be thinking of you. This is also good education for me, and probably for many other people reading about this, that in a system with universal health care there is still recourse for cases of real medical malpractice. That is often one of the misleading messages we get in the states by the openents of a unvoiersal health care plan--that it would mean there was no way of addressing these kind of cases.
Nelie
This link will take you directly to the correct page. Then click on
2-5 September 2008 (Dhamecha; Nalin Ramniklal), which opens a Word document with the charges against Robin's dentist. (Hope he gets what's coming to him!)
Thanks Leslie. That does the trick.
I would be interested to hear what our dentists on the forum think about the charges.
liz
Hi Liz, Good luck and best wishes with the court case, I hope the Dentist gets the harshest sentence possible under your laws. Semper Fi Bob
It is apparent that there was definate lack of professionalism. Even when thee was a return visit. It so sad the results of the lack of understanding, protocol and observation has lead to a loss of a loved one. The loved one cannot not be brought back but it is the knowledge and whatever repremand comes of the case could be the saving grace for another human being. I do admire your strength and courage. God bless.
PS....change the dentist to an urgent care doctor and you have my story save the fact that I am still here. Yet I may not have had to have the extensive surgery I am going to have. I sought help from a different professional who recognized and questions the existence of the ulcer. It is amazing how we put our lives in the hands of these professionals. With my new knowledge I will never take that chance again even now I ask a heck of a lot more questions and am not as passive in my treatment.
Dianne
Liz-Good Luck! You will be strong and confident-this I know for sure.
Sue
Liz,
I think it's a clear cut case of malpractice and he should have his liscense revoked, at the least.
I think you are doing a great thing in persuing this and perhaps indirectly, helping to save someone's life.
Good luck with the proceedings.
Jerry
Thanks everyone
I just got a call from David to say he is in hospital and cant come with me ,so as is my "new normal"i must do this alone.
But as i explained to my elderly mother last night when she got upset,i am not alone am i?I have Robins spirit and your support with me in my heart,and i know it will make me as strong as i need to be.I need to do this for all of you who are doing the very best you can with the hand you have been dealt.
I will have my laptop with me on the train and in the hotel so i will look forward to keeping in touch,and i will be home tomorrow night.I have been told i can sit in the court after i have given my evidence,which i will do until its time to get my train back in the late afternoon.
Bob - i am honoured to have received your marine blessing,this is one war i intend to win!!!
all my love to each and every one of you,and my prayers for our friends in New Orleans
liz
Liz:
You can do this! You are a very strong woman and will see this thru for your husband. Everyone here at OCF is right behind you. Best of luck!!!!
Liz -- Bravo for following through on this!! While the system for these sorts of things is far more streamlined in the UK than it is here, it is still no insignficant task to take on a professional while still going through your own personal recovery.
An insipiration to all of us, and we will be there with you.
Go get em Robin. I hope you own that Dr and all he has when you are thru with him. I tried to sue Ohio State but it seems they passed a bill making it next to impossible to sue anything State owned in Ohio. I tried every Law Firm in the book and all said the same. Ohio is too hard too win against now. Get em Tiger
thanks Jim,and evryone else
this is purely a professional conduct case no money is involved,although i have the option to sue him afterwards.
if he is found to have committed gross professional misconduct,he could be suspended or struck off.
I am on the train now and feeling very nervous.
liz
Hi Liz,
I'm thinking about you and hoping for a good outcome.
Love,
Joy
Liz, we are all on the train with you. We are going to watch you get justice.
Liz,
Sending my best wishes for a just result.
Love Tizz
Well its 5.30 in the morning,and i have been awake since 4.15.My stomach is churning and i just want to get this over with.I see the hurricane wasnt as bad as feared,so thats a little good news to start the day.Its wet and humid here in London ,and i miss the fresh yorkshire air,but soon this will be a memory,and i will be home.I will be working at the hospice tomorrow when the results of the hearing come in,but it will be a tense day.
I will write again when i am on the train back home.
love liz
Thinking of you Liz. Take care of YOURSELF.
Love
Gabriele
Thinking of you Liz. I hope by the time you read this everything went well.
Nelie
I'm hoping everything goes well for you Liz. You deserve it. The hurricane sure didn't bring rain to the Ohio Valley. It's so dry everything is dying off and a lot of yards are brown. Have a safe trip.
Liz,
Thinking of you and am certain you will do fine. We will all be there in spirit supporting you.
Take care,
Eileen
Hi
well its 3am here in england,and i have just woken up.Despite a good size glass of wine,the events of the day have left me shocked and just a little dazed.
The start of the hearing was delayed as the dentist decided to change his story and actually admitted most of the charges.His defence also submiited new evidence from an expert witness which the court officials had to examine. I was introduced to the GDC barrister who talked me through the procedures, and then came the body blow.
She explained that while it was evident that the dentist was guilty of the charges,the professional conduct comittee are not really interested in wether his negligence contributed to Robins death,but are judging wether or not by his actions and behaviour he is a threat to the general public.
While they are taking the charges seriously they are most concerned about his standing as a dentist and how he has brought the profession in to disrepute.
She feels that even though he has now admitted his mistake , the hearing is the worst scenario that a dentist can face,and it is likely the committee may decide that this enquiry and court appearance will result in the dentist never again being so derelict in his duty and therefore he poses no future threat to his patients.
in short this b***** may be back at work on Monday morning albeit with his reputation severely tarnished.
I was what is called the main core case witness and gave my evidence and was questioned by the committee for one hour before lunch,and a further one hour after lunch,keeping myself together quite nicely until the point they asked me to describe the course of Robs treatment and death.As is my nature,i pulled no punches and let them have a graphic account of the effects of the rads and the the recurrance,and at that point i did get very emotional,but when the defence council stood up for the cross examination and opened his statement by telling the court that his client had admitted his mistake and would like to extend his apologies to myself and robs family,i soon regained my composure and found my backbone again,
The case is not expected to conclude until Thursday at the earliest and may possibly go on until Friday so i will not have any further news until i get a phone call when the verdict is in.
The press were in the public gallery,and approached my barrister for a photograph of Rob,and will possibly be in touch with me when the verdict is announced and i will hopefully have the chance to express my utter disbelief at this turn of events.
i can of course take this courts findings to a medical negligence lawyer,and go on to sue the backside off him,which at the moment i am reserving judgment on,but if he escapes any sort of suspension or supervision order,then i feel inclined to pursue this in a court of law that is more concerned with the results of his actions on robs life.
thanks to all of you for the wonderful support and i will let you know when the verdict is in.
the results will be published on the website which you can access via the link i gave you.
love liz
Liz, I'm glad you survived such an horrendous episode, but you did well girl I'm sure!
Love, Tizz
Liz
I'm sure you did fine, I'm just glad you are home safe and well.
You say the press were there, any sign of the local TV station news? If not give them a nudge. If nothing else people in the area need to know to keep away from him.
I think you said you were at the hospice today, good, the next few days are going to be long ones.
Sunshine.. love and hugs
Helen
Liz,
You have been blessed with a very strong backbone to be able to bear this entire ordeal. This man may be sincere in his regret but any professional sanctions should not stop you from seeking legal redress for the results of his neglegence. Whatever the outcome, this story deserves to be published as a powerful warning to the world to be alert for the signs of OC and to be persistent in persuing proper medical care.
Wishing you continued strength and success,
Malka
Hi Liz -
I bet most of us would love to be on that train with you, all the way to the courthouse! What a show of support for you we would all provide showing up en masse! (can you picture it?). Thank you for keeping us informed, but even if he doesn't receive the full wrath of the court, you are succeeding in bringing the plight and suffering of oral cancer victims to the forefront.
As an aside, I have looked thru your previous posts for news of your brother-in-law (Paul?) to see if he has been found...any news there? You certainly have had a lot of burdens to bear, but your OCF family is always with you. Warmly, JaneP.
Liz,
The mere fact that he has admitted to the charges should be allowed as evidence in any civil proceeding, at least it would here, so I would go forward even if all they do is slap his hands.
Liz,
I am shocked at how this is going and wonder how something like this would be handled in the US. Perhaps one of our attorney members will chime in.
You have been through so much already and wonder if you really want to go through a lawsuit. I would think that the bad publicity, especially if you get it on the news as Helen suggested, would be enough for you to put this to rest.
Jerry
In general, if a malpractice suit were being litigated here, and absent a specific statute making the disciplinary proceedings privileged, the admission would be admissable as a declaration against interest or prior recorded testimony, depending upon how it occurred and in what form.
The approach taken by the disciplinary panel is not unusual -- most licensure actions are premised upon the public interest. With medical practitioners, the result of the malpractice is not dispositive of the case. Obviously, when dealing with health care matters, even a small error can have devastating consequences. They look more to the character of the mistake, the likelihood of it being repeated, and what it says, if anything about the fundamental knowledge and training of the practitioner.
So, if a neurosurgeon accidentally nicks a vessel in the brain, causing a stroke and death, that mistake, in isolation, would ordinarily not jeopardize his or her license. However, when you have repeated failure to take relevant action, as in Liz's case, most disciplinary panels would view this quite seriously.
While I don't have experience with dental boards, I do with medical. Even something with results as tragic as this would not necessarily result in the revocation of the doctor's right to practice. If it were a first offense, etc., there could be a lengthy suspension, requirement for further training and a period of supervised practice.
Much to my surprise yesterdays hearing was reported in the national press.I have spoken at length with the reporter who was at the hearing and he is going to follow up the report after the dentist gives his evidence tomorrow.I have been unable to copy the article into this message but i have posted it on my face book page,and i will also copy it into the oral cancer foundation facebook site.
This is the best news possible and takes the edge of the disappointment i felt when i came home.Unfortunately Jeffs post is exactly right and until we get the verdict on Friday i will make no more decisions regarding my future plans.
I have been asked to submit some photos of Robin and myself and to be prepared for further uptake of the story.They are also going to incorporate Pauls disappearance and asked for his photo as well,so just maybe some good will come out of all this.There are several reports on the internet which can be found by googling Naline Dharmecha.
I was contacted by the press today,and they are definatly following this up,when the verdict is in tomorrow
Well that's a positive step, negative publicity for the dentist, but positive publicity for the early diagnosis of OC.
Hang on in there lady.
Sunshine.. love and hugs
Helen
I know you are probably all bored to death with this subject,but i have just picked this article up on the internet,and wanted to share this with you
September 04, 2008 - DHAMECHA: DENTIST GUILTY OF MISCONDUCT OVER CANCER BLUNDER HINDHEAD, SURREY; LEEDS A dentist who told a patient suffering from mouth cancer to gargle with Listerine faces being thrown out of the profession today. (Thurs) Nalin Dhamecha assured Robin Read there was 'nothing untoward' when he asked for treatment for an ulcer under his tongue that was not healing.
The findings and judgment will be given today hopefully.
Bored never.. The first place I come at the moment is here to see if you have any news.
So far it's looking good lady, lets hope the panel see it as such.
Sunshine.. love and hugs
Helen
Liz,
Certainly not bored. I look forward to all your postings, especially this one.
Jerry
Liz,
The exposure is priceless and will lead to life saving awareness which is far more important than how this hearing will deal with him professionally. Job well done but as we say in the States, "strike while the iron's hot" meaning keep on pressing the media to talk this up now.
Verdict received this evening at 7.30 pm after 10 hours deliberation
Guilty of serious professional misconduct.Fitness to practice impaired.To undergo a period of retraining and supervision.Findings will be published on GDC website next week.
He gets a second chance. Robin didnt .
Liz
What can I say, I so wish he had been struck off. But our gmc works with it's own guide lines, and the verdict was, I suspect the best you were ever going to get.
So now make sure that as many of the press and media sources you have report this case. Public reaction could have as much impact on his career as a suspension. (Who wants to be treated by an incompetent dentist.)
Thinking of you..
Sunshine.. love and hugs
Helen
Liz,
I know it's a bitter-sweet victory for you but, none the less in some way you got what you wanted, deserved and needed.
I know none of this will bring Robin back. Your efforts may prevent someone else having to live through a similar situation. You should be proud of yourself for going after what is right. You are definatly and inspiration to us all.
Hugs!
My prayers are with you.
Mike
Liz, in my eyes and probably every one here, you came out with a TKO. I have you on my heros list and will look up to you as a fighter. All you can do is Do Your Best.
It wasn't good enough though was it jim?
My heart sank when I read your post. But, on thinking about it for a second, and even though I'm sure it doesn't feel like it - you and Robin have accomplished something that many of us will never have the opportunity to do. You have saved lives.
All the publicity will make oral cancer awareness becomes a "top of mind" issue for dentists as well as the general public. Even dentists here are following the case. Who know how many lives you and Robin will positively impact through this case.
No small accomplishment there!!
((((((((((((((((LIZ)))))))))))))))))))
Donna
Liz, you've done very well, I echo Donna and others. The more publicity the better...always put things on radio here works well, things get done (our ABC is wonderful). Might send all of these outcomes to my dentist (he is the secretary of the Dental Association), if he hasn't heard already.
Tizz
Liz, I respectfully disagree. While it may not feel like a victory, it truly is. This practitioner will never make that mistake again, which is all you could have acheived in any event. You have a solid foundation for your civil suit -- the fact that he did not permanently lose his license is immaterial. As others have said, no result could undo what has been done or bring Robin back. You have raised awareness and saved untold lives, both through the result in this case and the publicity that has been generated. People reading it will be more aware of their own symptoms, and dentists reading the results will be more careful.
You won, hands down. Good job.
The outcome of the case revolved around Robins second dental appointment on May 15th.Despite the fact that i told them Robin first told me about the ulcer in March,and he saw the dentist on 5th May,the man says he has no recollection of the second appointment ,and despite making no record about following up on the ulcer,he feels he WOULD have told Robin to come back if he had any further problems.
The onus was on the prosecution (who stated that he should have given rob another appointment ,or referred him to a doctor at that time)to prove that he didnt tell Rob to come back,and of course the only person who could do that ,is not here to tell us what was said.
He fully admitted the charges against him for the two appointments in october,but the committee felt that the damage was already done by then,and a diagnosis 7 weeks earlier wouldn't have affected robs final outcome.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Liz,
I think you did great and Robin is very proud of you but he will have to wait a long time to tell you.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Listerine-allowed-carry-practising.htmlI hope this is a link to an article that appeared today on the
Mail Online internet news service.
I think that we should post replies to this article which illustrate that this is not some isolated case. Given how many of us never had proper exams before our diagnosis, have been misdiagnosed, etc. there are enough stories to tell while the newspaper web site is accepting comments. That a licensed dentist who is trained to recognize oral lesions failed to do so would not fly here in the US.
Well I posted but when went back to check the count still showed 0 comments. Liz, I am sorry you had to re-live your ordeal and got such cheap results for it. I'm proud of what you did accomplish. You can bet you bottom dollar that dentist so much as thinks he sees a problem with someone else there will be action taken. BB
I have my post on it's way. I bet they won't print it. I was just way too nice. LOL Oh Yea
It may be that all comments must be reviewed before being posted -- and since it's the middle of the night in the UK, the staffing may be a bit thin.
Hi Liz,
I have been away for a few days with no possibility to get on line. I have just got myself up to date with the court case and hope you are holding up with the stress of all that you have endured these last days. As others here have mentioned the outcome is not what you would have hoped for however I think Donna put it very well when she wrote ;
[quote=Pandora99]My heart sank when I read your post. But, on thinking about it for a second, and even though I'm sure it doesn't feel like it - you and Robin have accomplished something that many of us will never have the opportunity to do. You have saved lives.
All the publicity will make oral cancer awareness becomes a "top of mind" issue for dentists as well as the general public. Even dentists here are following the case. Who know how many lives you and Robin will positively impact through this case.
No small accomplishment there!!
Donna
[/quote]
I also tried to post a test comment initally on the Mail Online and this is what came up. Will check later
Thank you!
Thank you for adding a comment to Mail Online.
All contributions by [b]members are pre-moderated. MailOnline receives thousands of messages every day so please be patient. [/b]
Not sure what they mean by members???
Love
Gabriele
Brian thats a brilliant plan!
Even if the comments are moderated, they should be good with comments that are factual thoughtful and helpful, stated without name calling or overt rudeness. They usually want to weed out the weirdoes, not just those with differing opinions. After all they are in the news business not the opinion business. We are just trying to make their job easier to keep it in the "news." Controversy sells newspapers.
Thanks for the info Liz - I posted my comment.
Donna
Liz
Im sorry the case didnt turn out as you would have liked. I also left a comment to the article.
Liz,
I just read the article and I will be happy to post a comment as a dentist and an oral cancer survivior.
Although the outcome was not what you had hoped for, you have accomplished a great deal by bringing this dentist's failure to diagnose into the public eye. You should be proud of what you have done.
Jerry
Thanks Jerry
I am lying in bed(its 4pm)at the moment.I had a bit of a funny turn while i was at the hospice this morning and i was violently sick.My boss ordered me home.She said i look exhausted,emotionally fraught and unwell.I said thanks lol.
I have to be honest and say i havent slept well for months,and hardly at all for the last week.The committees findings have absolutely wiped the floor with me,and no matter how many times i hear that i did good,my sorrow at the implications for the rest of you is just devastating.I sooooo wanted this case to be held up as a benchmark case for the whole world to see.When i think of it,which i do all the time,it feels like a great big door has been slammed in my face,and you are all going to have to fight even harder for increased awarenes in the dental profession.
I have this sneaky feeling that i have no where to hide any more when it comes to accepting Robs death.Finally i have nothing left to do.Its really all over,and its quite painful .I have put my grief in a box for 13 months,and this seems to have lifted the lid off it good and proper.
The hospice are insisting that i get counselling now,and this seems such an admission of weakness,but i will stay here in bed and try to get some rest,a least until tomorrow,when i am due back at the hospice, and i have managed to sleep for three hours so far.
Robs struggle to live which i know some may think wasnt all that valient,will haunt me forever,but more than that the circumstances of every person here will keep me fighting this cancer every opportunity i get.
I have written to the lawyers,who totally agree that the decision stinks, and they are going to raise my concerns about the verdict with the committee.Robin had had his ulcer for four weeks before his first visit in May,so by the time of the second visit,on the 15th May he had already had it 6 weeks ,and i CANNOT see how he got away with not referring him ,and not making note of the status of the ulcer and i cant see how they can state so categorically that he would have died anyway,what the hell are they clairvoyant.Why do these people assume that it was an automatic death sentence?
The General Dental Council's whole case revolved around these points and they seem to have just ignored them. There is no appeal however so nothing will change.
Your interest and support have been the one constant that has kept me going through this,and i am so sorry it didnt turn out better for all of us.
love and hugs to one and all
liz
Getting some help is NOT an admission of weakness. You have been in a long and devastating battle. If you weren't showing signs of wear-you wouldn't be normal. Please let the good people at hospice help you. Rob did fight valiently with you right by his side. Wereas he is at peace-you are still fighting. Please take care of yourself now and with the "lid lifted off your grief" let it go. You can still be there to fight for awareness but you must also fight for yourself and your peace of mind.
God bless you,
Sue
Liz.....after being such a loving caretaker to Rob you know that you must "love" yourself a little more now and follow all good and loving advice to take care of YOU.
I have emailed you about my feelings about your case, but for others....I, (and many of you) am also the victim of an ill-trained dentist, who, even when presented with full-blown SCC that had spread from the outside of my gums, to the inside, and then to the palate, NEVER even considered that it was malignant, cauterized it, and when challenged the next day, said that it must be periodontal disease!
I considered filing a lawsuit, and in some wave of false "honor," felt that it was a negative thing to do, when I needed to focus positively on my own recovery. By the time I saw clearly that this individual was guilty of a "failure to diagnose," the statute of limitations had passed (one year.) I am very disappointed that I delayed taking this action, because the more I read here, the more I realize that this is an epidemic! There are many, many wonderful, well-trained, motivated dentists (ie. Jerry and Mike!) but we are seeing that oral cancer doesn't seem to be one of the areas in which dentists are adequately trained.
Would we do better to focus our energies on the dental schools?? or to mount a two-pronged attack: both the schools AND the individuals.
One of the best ways to reach the individuals, it seems to me, is through the local dental societies. Each of us can offer to speak at their regular meeting.....take some OCF brochures.....and answer questions about the impact of oral cancer on our lives, and how it might have been different with a properly trained dental professional.
This same approach should be applied to the assistants....the hygeinists...since they are often the first, and sometimes the only, ones to see a patient.
Liz, you are in my prayers. I can see that you wanted to succeed in this to somehow find justice for Rob. YOU DID! You can't help it if a small group sees it a different way. They, at least, did admit that the dentist was ill-trained in this area. I hope that somehow the publicity will hurt him in his pocketbook. Bad publicity is the kiss of death for a medical or dental professional, and word of mouth is as powerful as the press.
I haven't intended to ruin my dentist's life, but if someone asks me sincerely who my dentist was, I will tell them. I haven't written to the newspaper with his name or anything like that, but I have written an article (which I never sent for publication, since so many people here would know exactly whom I was writing about) about the importance of training for the dental professionals, and the importance of individual awareness of the signs of oral cancer and the importance of being certain that you are getting an expert oral cancer screening.
Since so many of these cancers go un-diagnosed for so long, it is vital, of course, that the public become aware of the warning signs, as well as of the importance of choosing their dentist well!
You can publicize all of these things. And if you are so moved, you can offer to share the name of Rob's dentist if a person wants to call you. (You might be sued for libel if you publish it in the paper!)
Even now that cancer is getting quite a lot of attention, it is a crime how little publicity this terrible form of the disease is getting.
Blahblah........I am not saying anything that the rest of you don't already know. I get on a roll and then I begin to RANT! Arghhhhhhhhh!!! It makes me so mad! and then for Liz to be so misunderstood just adds fuel to my fire!
Liz.......you are a champ in all our books! and you did bring the issue into the public eye. That is a great service, and you never know just how it might affect others.
You are in our hearts. You KNOW that, don't you?? I hope so.
XO
I was just reading some of the comments. It is surprising where all they came from. From Slovenia to China. There are quite a few Countries represented. I read a couple that favor the Dentist somewhat .
Jim i have read the comments and i noticed that none of the comments posted by anyone here have been shown ,neither have either of the two i have sent ,or friends of mine from australia.i wonder why?
Hi Liz,
Anything to do with being a member. I cut and pasted this response from the paper when I sent a comment around 18 hours ago??
[/quote]
I also tried to post a test comment initally on the Mail Online and this is what came up. Will check later
Thank you!
Thank you for adding a comment to Mail Online.
All contributions by [b]members are pre-moderated. MailOnline receives thousands of messages every day so please be patient. [/b]
Not sure what they mean by members???
[/quote]
I have just read a comment by a girl from the mouth cancer foundation that she posted yesterday afternoon ,so maybe its just taking time for them to appear.Lets wait and see.
I occasionally moderate comments for one of my employer's politics blogs. We read all comments for offensive language, libel, etc., then hit the "publish comment" box and wait while the creaky software does whatever it does (slowly) to put the comment on the page. It is far more time-consuming than you might think.
I posted a comment this morning. I just checked and there are none dated 9/9, yet.
Jerry
On a lighter note!!For those who may(or not) be wondering,the photo was taken before i lost nearly 80 lbs lol.
Dr Vinod Joshi posted this link on the Mouth Cancer foundation today.
http://www.medindia.net/news/UK-Den...outh-Cancer-the-Patient-Died-41590-1.htmguess we can say the word is really spreading!!
How does one see and read the comments?
David
they are at the bottom of the mail online article.It shows the last three and you can click on show all.I should think carefully before you look.Some of them are so stupid it would make your blood boil.
liz
I tried the "click all" but didn't see the comment I made a couple of days ago - it shows only 11 comments.
Just FYI Liz, I sent the link to the article to my dentist. He is member of the Manitoba Dentists Assoc and will circulate the article amongst his peers. He too felt that the dentists behaviour was unacceptable.
You and Robin have done a great job to spread the word. Like I said before, the impact of that cannot be measured and you are to be commended.
Donna
They still haven't posted any comments after 9/8 and I suspect that they won't.
I just can't believe that this Dr. Gibson would have made such an absurd statement that the outcome for Robin would have been no different if the dentist had caught the cancer. That really ticks me off. How the heck does he know?
Liz, I think the publicity is far from over. Please keep posting the links.
Jerry
Cookie. Post the name and address of the editor of the newspaper, especially the email address. We will just redirect our efforts. If you came across the email address of Dr. Gibson, I suspect he would get some emails as well, telling him what we all know to be true - Delayed diagnosis allows the disease to prosper and outcomes are worse. This is not opinion, it is well established by the SEER numbers. I would also work Vinod's boards for support in the email form as well.
I also left a comment.
Marlene
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/contactus.htmlThis link shows the contact page and the editors details.
The only person from either forum to be successful getting her comment published was Angela from Congleton in cheshire who is a member of the Mouth Cancer Foundation.I tried to comment on the ****head who asked what sort of person went to the dentist with a serious ulcer,the point of note here being Robin didnt know it was a serious ulcer,surely it was up to the dentist to tell him that and send him to a doctor.
I too am amazed at the arrogance of Dr Gibsons remarks which are supposedly based on the opinion of medical experts,and regarding the appointments in October i can see they may have some foundation,but in May i cant see how his chance of survival wouldn't have been considerably higher.
A good few on the mouth cancer foundation left comments that havent appeared,i would guess that the matter is out of their news loop now.
just a matter to note.
I havent as yet received a copy of the full determination,and it hasnt been published on the gdc site although the two cases heard this week have,so i am wondering if the lawyers have responded to my e-mail strongly airing my concerns on the bits of the statement i am aware of.They said they were taking my complaint back to the general dental council who brought the prosection in the first place,
The committee is an independant one but i was a bit shocked that 2 out of the five were lay women with no medical or dental expertise,two were dentists, one was a doctor and they had a judge on the panel to give them legal direction.As i explained last week apparently robs death was not the issue in this hearing!!!it was wether the dentist poses a threat to the public and how bad they considered his misconduct to be.
I have just checked the comments on this new link,and angela has got her comment published there as well.i wonder what she has got lol.
LOOK WHAT I FOUND WHEN I GOOGLED DR.JOHN GIBSON I WONDER IF THIS WAS THE SAME MAN,HE WAS MOST DEFINATELY A SCOT
Pioneers in patient care: consultants leading change
Scotland
Dr John Gibson
Glasgow Dental Hospital and University of Glasgow Dental School
Job title: Senior lecturer and honorary consultant in oral medicine
Specialty: Oral medicine
Innovation: Oral cancer awareness pack � �Oral Cancer Prevention and Detection�
Mouth cancer is on the increase in Scotland with about 500 new cases being seen each year. In fact the number of mouth cancer deaths in Scottish adults equals the number of deaths from cervical cancer and is higher than that of malignant melanoma. In a bid to make doctors, dentists, primary health care teams and their patients more aware of the dangers of mouth cancer Dr John Gibson, who is also a qualified dentist, and his team have put together an oral cancer awareness pack.
Dr Gibson says: �There appears to be a dearth of knowledge among doctors, dentists and patients about oral cancer even though 3,500 people in the UK are diagnosed with it every year. We needed to do more.
�Although the disease occurs mainly in men over 50 it can occur in either gender at any age and unfortunately many people who develop the disease present with symptoms very late and the prognosis is poor. If the disease is diagnosed early and treated straight away the chance of a good outcome is very high.�
The pack, launched in February earlier this year, includes a WebPage and patient information leaflets, detailed guidance and a video for health care professionals on how to prevent and detect oral cancer which includes an interview with a patient who has had the disease. It was funded jointly by University of Glasgow, the Scottish Council for Postgraduate Medical and Dental Education and the Health Education Board for Scotland and has been distributed to all GP practices, dentists and community pharmacies in Scotland.
Dr Gibson says: �We want to increase professional awareness so that patients� questions may be answered more appropriately and so that they have better access to oral cancer care services. And public awareness increases too so that patients come and see us before it is too late."
The pack�s success is being evaluated. Dr Gibson says patients have reacted well to the leaflets but the pack�s best impact so far has been with doctors and dentists.
Dr Gibson says that he is motivated by the sadness of patients � mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters � who are faced with disfiguring surgery and death as a result of late presentation. �This is a cancer that can be seen by offering patients a rapid mouth examination in the out-patient setting � no fancy or expensive equipment or patient discomfort. We can do much better.�
He needs to practice what he preaches.
Cookie,
First, I want to congratulate you for going through this very hard situation--it was very painful and you did a great thing...This court case alone brought a great deal of awareness to many people about the dangers of OC.
Correct me if I'm wrong--the judging panel was looking at the case not as if the Dentist contributed to Robins death but that if the the Dentist is a danger to the community. And after it was all said and done the panel decided that the Dentist is not a danger to future patients or the community. Because of the Dentists horrible negligence or ignorance on Robin; in-other-words, the Dentist HAD learned from his mistake. And obviously something like this would never happen again in his practice...as the panel sees it. Am I understanding this case correctly? If this is true, then obviously the court panel agrees with you that he is guilty in contributing to Robins death. Are there any other actions that you can take? Can you appeal? Does the UK have a civil court? Can you sue the Dentist directly? Here in the United States, Prosecutor's can loose a case in criminal court but then family members of the victim can win in civil court...A great example would be the O.J. Simpson murder trial. Long story short, O.J. won in the criminal court but lost 33 million dollars in the civil court.
I am very sorry for your loss. I understand your situation a little. My family Doctor blew off my concerns back in December 2007. Basically told me to stop using Listerine and spicy foods. Dentist said the same thing. Doctor was like you're never sick, you don't drink heavily, you don't smoke, you're too young...you don't fit the OC profile...it's not cancer. Even after I said, "Doc, I'm afraid I have cancer...my grandmother had tongue cancer." But, since she was 80 that doesn't matter, according to my Doctor. Then in May 2008 the tumor exploded in size. Now I'm sitting here with half a tongue and numbness from a neck dissection waiting for radiation to start. Am I mad at the Doctor(s)...YES, because I trusted their professionalism and expertise. My Aunt and Uncle want me to sue, my girlfriend wants me to sue...I'm not going to sue because I am more mad at myself for not getting a third, forth, or fifth opinion...I should have but did not do it. My mistake. I trusted their words..."Ray it's NOT cancer..." Now, since this has happened...I have found out that my grandmother had OC, her nephew's Albert and Tom had OC, and that her grandson, Raymond (me) has OC, three generations of the same family. Tom died from it, he was in his 40's. I'm sure if I knew all of this back in December and I had told the Doctor about my other relatives...it could have been different. My grandmother forgot to tell me...she's in her 90's...and no one else brought it up...not until I was diagnosed July 16, 2008. I feel positive my Doctor would not make this mistake again...on anyone. He has called me a few times and we talked about it. He's a good guy...been my Doctor since 1974.
What ever path you take...I hope you find closure soon. My thoughts and prayers are with you...good luck.
Ray thankyou for the thoughtful and well expressed message.
Your reading of the case is exactly right,and i have appealed the decision which is why the results havent been formally published.One of the main reasons i will not give this up is because the dentist signed a sworn statement saying that robs ulcer was healed when he saw him in October.In other words he lied to the lawyers.when he was found out in this lie,on the morning the hearing started,he changed his plea,and held his hand up to his guilt.But he still got off because they wernt prepared to accept that he should have referred robin in May,thus giving him a fighting chance of survival.I am even more incensed now i have discovered the back ground of the committee chairman(see earlier post)The duplicity of the man beggars all belief.
I have been advised by the lawyers that i can sue him if i want to,but i need to clear all this up and get a result we can all respect.
good luck with the treatment
liz
The findings of the committe have been published
fitness to practise hearings
Jeff
can you decifer the legalese please.I think i get the bottom line but i just dont understand how they an make such sweeping assumptions and observations.
thanks liz
Thanks to all of you have PM'd me and registered your comments in the many press releases.I have sent a letter containing my observations and concerns,to the General Dental Council,but i guess the case is now closed,and the matter must be put to rest.
This goes against every fiber of my being,but beating your head against a brick wall has never been a very productive activity,and there are no more roads open to continue.
Wednesday i am going to see a bereavement counsellor and see if i can channel the emotions i have used over the last 12 months,into accepting Robins death,and hopefully learning to come to terms with it.I can only pray that this case will prompt others who have suferred harm at the hands of inept professionals,to stand up for themselves the way Rob and i did.
hugs
liz
Liz,
Having had a similar experience I can relate to your (or should I say Robin's) pain. I too was not Dx'd properly or refered by my dentist even after I questioned him about the tumor. But for the grace of God I survived anyway even though it was quite advanced when I finally went to an ENT. I had been a patient with my dentist (recently retired) since he started in practice. Their office has only seen 3 patients with OC in the past 25 years (and they have a LOT of patients). I was very conflicted over how to handle it and decided to let it go. He wasn't responsible for my cancer and had a reasonable explanation for his failure to detect it.
I also have to take some responsibility because my own fear crippled me from getting a referal to an ENT sooner. I knew something was up and I stuck my head in a bucket of sand like the proverbial ostrich. I also went to an GP (twice) and he didn't refer me for quite some time as well.
From reading the report it sounds to me like you may have material for a strong civil liablity suit.
None of this will bring Robin back and may have consequences of setting your grief recovery back for some time, reliving the horrors of Robin's circumstances in court.
Robin was young and had many years of earning potential taken away from him (and you). This is the typical basis for civil liability claims in the US. The burden of proof is much less as well in a civil trial.
Only your heart knows for sure what path you must take.
Liz,
Whatever you choose to do or not do will not change the fact that by your persistence in airing the painful details of your ordeal you have brought awareness of this terrible OC to many around the world.
However the worldly courts decide, the Heavenly Court is surely ruling in your favor.
Wishing you peace of mind and heart,
Malka
Thanks Gary and Malka
I had a lengthy conversation with a medical negligence solicitor on friday.His opinion is not very encouraging.He says they will have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the dentists actions reduced Robins chances of survival by at least 50%,and as the committee judged that his misconduct didnt affect the outcome of Robs disease and he would have died anyway,although i have no idea how they can know that,this would be difficult to prove.
liz,
That really stinks as we all know that their findings may be wrong and that no one really has any way of being sure about the outcome with earlier treatment.
Jerry
Hi Liz,
I was afraid that the medical community would side with its own, but I think you got this guy enough bad publicity to 'put a real hurt' in his practice. Hopefully he is not the only dentist in that town so people have a choice.
As to the arrogance of this guy to sign a sworn statement that it was healed and then back down when he got caught, it would make me so mad that I think I would file the civil suit just to further damage his reputation. How much will it cost both physically and financially to file the civil suit if you lose it? If you decide to pursue it, I would go in expecting to not win any settlement, but to a least show what a liar this guy is in addition to incompetent.
You did good. Time to get on with your life. Hope the counselling helps.
Take care,
Eileen
I was contacted by the radio station that did the awareness interview with me a few weeks ago.I went in this morning and recorded a spot for tomorrows news bulletins,and i didnt pull my punches.Yes Eileen i am as mad as a hornet,and i will not let this go.The lawyers who prosecuted the case have gone back to the GDC who instigated the conduct committee hearing and they are challenging the determination.so for now we wait and see.
The story is global and if you google his name there are now two pages of news items regarding the case,so at the very least he has achieved a level of notoriety he may not have expected.
Remember the Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease so go for it Liz.
Brilliant Lady
You are doing so well.. I am proud of you, no I correct that, we are all so proud of you..
What ever the outcome, you will be able to look back and say no-one could have done more.
Sunshine.. love and hugs
Helen
Liz,
I am, to say the least, in awe of your strength of character. To have gone through this aweful (..the only word that I feel describes this) situation and still push forward is amazing to me. I read the news article and the decision and am unimpressed by the decision and the lax sanctions imposed on this individuals liscence to practice.
You know my heart and prayers are with you.
Please know we are all here to lean on and support you.
I have had you in my thoughts and Irish prayers for awhile (the big ones) and still do.
HUGS!
Mike