Well Gary, you gave good advice there I think.
On the day when I was going to see a lawyer and had really decided my marriage was over, he apparently had an attack of conscience and started making some noises about staying to work things out. I let him know pretty quickly that if he stayed it was to work things out, not to waffle around more, which meant he had to agree to go back to counseling (and HE had to call the counselor for an appointment so he couldn't later act like he was pressured into it by me). He agreed and he did call.

More importantly he had a day of just being reflective himself and actually seemed to genuinely realize how much he'd closed himself off to me emotionally during this whole cancer battle BECAUSE of the cancer being so scary. He was really genuinely remorseful. This is something I really had come to beleive he would never realize or really feel any remorse for and I'm still amazed he hsa seen it and how much pain it caused me.

Of course there's still a world of stuff to work on between us right now, I'm still leery of trusting him totally at this point but you were right that I couldn't see what the future would bring when I made that last post, Gary.

I'll tell ya - the caregivers have it much worse than we do - hard as it is to believe. Give him LOT'S of space. It takes time to work through these things. Maybe he should consider a support group for caregivers. Sometimes it is helpful to know that you are not alone.

It sounds like things are going to work out ok.

I did receive 8 months of LCT (Lay Christian Counseling) training several years ago (before the cancer adventure) and never knew quite why I took the course since my church uses only professional counselors. It was more of a "people helping" type of thing.

PS - watch out for those ultimatims they are never a good thing - multiple choices vs consequences and appropriate boundaries are a healthier way to approach this.

He should have been in a support group for caregivers a year ago. I'm still having health issues, but the worst are over. He's not someone big on support groups anyway (I tried to get him to go to the caregiver support group here several times and he wasn't interested).

As far as ultimatums, I didn't see myself as giving an ultimatum--it was setting aboundary though. He had already put me through hell announcing he was leaving, and actually leaving for several days, and then saying he wanted to stay at the VERY last minute, but fater saying he wouldn't come back to counseling. I didn't want him thinking he could stay and keep the hell ongoing about whether he really wanted to be there ir not without even getting counseling help. To me that WAS an appropriate boundary at that point.

I didn't really say the marriage would be over if he moved out just that I was going to get a good lawyer and I suspected we wouldn't reconcile once lawyers got involved.

Nelie,
Let me explain something to you about lawyers (I have divorced twice). It is an "adversarial justice" system. They make their money insuring that you are both good and pissed off at each other - no matter how civil and well intentioned things start out. They especially love the "discovery" phase (to discover how much THEY can plunder) and the 4 way meetings over stuff at $250 to $500 and hour -portal to portal (i.e. make sure you get lawyers close by -if it comes to that). Most states have community property laws so lawyers are of minimal use anyway (try a paralegal or one lawyer if this suits you). Custody of children, spousal support and vast real estate holdings being another matter.

An interesting contrast between criminal court and family court is that in criminal courts "bad" people are on their best behaviour while in family court "good" people are on their worst.

Not unlike your situation, my wife spoke with an attorney when I was bottoming out in post Tx and I was disappointed and very offended by that and it took a LONG time to get get past it and redevelop bonds of trust.

There is a fine line between ultimatums and healthy boundaries - only you can decide. It is important though to "respond" rather than "react" and also to put yourself in the shoes and mental state of the other person if at all possible. Maybe you should go to a caregivers support group to hear their side of it - you may gain more insight and empathy for your husbands situation. I can tell you also that men don't do well with helplessness which is the cornerstone of caring for a cancer patient. We are impotent to protect our spouse -it is extrememly demoralizing. Men typically react by "going into our cave" (John Gray) or closing down (as you put it). We are masters of finding solution and when we can't, or if it is impossible, it drives us crazy. We spend much processing it (or attempting to). Then we go into into guilt that we haven't done enough (and America is a "guilt" based culture to start out with -contrasted with "shame" based Asian cultures).

Why doesn't he want to go back to counseling? Does he not like the couselor? Does he feel ganged up on? Are his feelings really being heard? Good couselors are hard to find and both of you should participate in the selection and pre counseling interview. There should also be an agenda of what goals you want to achieve in counseling. Baring your soul to a stranger is not the easist thing. We are all flawed -some deal with it better than others. Maybe the counselor could enlighten him on the benefits of a caregivers support group, or maybe find a smaller, more intimate group with a private counselor. At this point a third party suggestion may be more effective.

I have had bad experiences with counselors and fired a few in past years. They should NEVER offer direct advice, only choices and consequences. Pitting one of you against the other is another counselor "sin" right up there with divorce lawyers.

Another thing that I learned in counseling training, actually in a boundaries workshop, is that at times, "geographical separation" is necessary (and a healthy boundary in itself). Some times you just need some space to reflect on things and realign perspective - not necessarily to plot the divorce!

I am not trying to give you any advice - just things to ponder. I have been an AA member now for almost 11 years and we have a saying "think think think" (before you speak or do). It works well for me if I practice it.

Gary, He likes the counselor. In fact, he insisted we switch to this counselor when we were seeing another one. And this counselor is a good one (I've also had my bad experiences with counselors in the past) but he calls us BOTH on things and also helps us be kinder and more compassionate. Mainly, though, hubby has not wanted to see the counselor when he's had so much of his body (I was going to say "one foot" but that doesn't quite give the picture) out the door that he isn't willing to do the work. So aksing him to call the counselor if he stayed was my was of saying "are you in it anough to do the work". If not, we really do need to be separated.

As for what you said about lawyers, I worked as a community mediator for many years so I hear ya. But one of the main issues in our marriage is that hubby has a hard time negotiating, also there are some issues of support,as I see it, given the medical bills I am facing. I've ben through two prior divorces too where I either used a mediation lawyer or we just agreed and used one lawyer. But when you are in remission from two kinds of cancer, either one of which may come back, the terrain looks a little different in terms of taking care of yourself. Anyway, thankfully it hasn't come to that and hopefully will not.

Wow, Nelie, you are one strong lady! I am amazed at how much you have had to deal with and yet, you are still coping, and coping pretty well! Boundaries are a good thing, especially for people who don't negoiate well and espec. for those who like to bully to get their way. I have no special insight into marriage or divorce (been there done that, more than once!), but I am impressed at how calm you seem & how you are taking care of yourself. You are very strong, whether you know it or not! Hang in there. - Candace

Nelie, Having been through something like your situation, I have a little advice, it's free (and worth every penny!) Make plans and arrangements to live without him, but leave the back door to your heart open just a bit, just in case.

Best of luck in whatever transpires...
Andrea

Nelie,
I've read your posts, and want to send you my support.
You've been through so much, and your husband has too, but with the help that you are seeking as a couple, it is what you both owe one another.
If it doesn't work, you will know that you did all you could do. And, hopefully, if it does work, you will find one another again.
Love Always,
Mandi

Hi Nelie -

Gosh girl, you have been through the ringer. I can't imagine going through both HNC PLUS Breast cancer. Please hang in there. You can only control your own actions - not hubby's. You are right to set your boundaries and remember to respect any boundaries hubby might set as well. It takes a tremendous amount of respect and trust to get through any day of marriage when things are 'normal' -- add cancer to the mix and well, it's just down right difficult.

As a caregiver, I would like to say that the emotions I have had to deal with during the past year have scared me to death. My hubby, Kenny, and I have been married nearly 28 years and he is absolutely my best friend - so when I found myself angry and hostle about his cancer, it was terrifying.

Here's the honest truth -- cancer changes people.

It changes the person with the disease and it changes everyone that loves you. From day one I told Kenny that HE did not have cancer -- WE have cancer. At the time, I don't think he got what I was trying to say - but today I know he get's it.

I live day to day wondering if I am a wife or a widow. The thought of losing the love of my life, my partner, my very best friend was the most frightening thing I have ever had to face and it is natural to want to run away from that thought.

While caregivers do not have the physical pain of the cancer and treatments, we do have the emotional and mental anguish of watching our loved ones go through hell. Most of us want to protect our loved ones and just want to make things better. Add to this the stress of managing health care for something as intense as cancer, plus keeping the household running and constantly communicating with family and friends about Kenny's health, well ... it sometimes is more than I think I can handle. But .. taking things one day at a time - literally - helps. And it all works out.

Gary has some excellent points and putting things into the AA culture is a super way of tackling the feelings.

Don't worry about the world coming to an end tomorrow - it's already tomorrow in Australia!

Hang in there.
Carol

I just wanted to thank everyone who posted here and post a brief update. Hubby had pangs of guilt that seem to have really changed things--at least so far (I'm going to still be a little unsure of this for a while which is probably reasonable at this point). We're still together and back in couples counseling and he's being more emotionally supportive of the physical challenges I still face than he ever was during the worst of my treatment.

This is a lonely disease sometimes and it's a shame it made both of feel estranged from each other on top of everything else, but maybe we're over the worst of that. I'm grateful, as always, for the support I found here when I needed it.

Nelie