Well, this seems as good a place to put this as any. When I was diagnosed (almost a year ago) one of the things I kept saying to myself that helped save my sanity was that if it had to happen, it happened at a time in my life when I had wonderful loving people around me. And the person I was most grateful for was my husband.

This was a marriage where we had found each other late in life (5 and 1/2 years ago), after both having other fialed marriages. We rarely had a fight and where he was just a sweetie most days. And all through my treatment, for the most part, he was very supportive. I say for the most part because there were a couple of really NOT supportive moments and they were disturbingly not supportive (not just "honey I'm too busy to take you to raidaiton today" but the sort of thing were you think the person who had your best interests in mind is actually sabotaging them at a time when you're extrememly vilnerable). Still, cancer is a stressor (espcailly this one) and I had breast cancer as well and complications from th breast surgery on top of that.

Anyway, shortly (and I mean shortly like 2 weeks) after the end of my treatment, when I was still extremely sick from raidation adn just barely able to talk again, my husband started getting really angry and sicontent and breaking promises he had made about when he'd be around to acer for me and a bunch of other things. We started couples counsleing and a LOT of resentment spilled out from him about how I hadn't been "tkaing care of his needs" while I was at my sickest. Well-no more comment there. Those of you who have been through this know its hard to take care of your own needs through this stuff.

So the couples counseling goes on and he's not satisfied its going anywhere fast enough and wants to switch counselors--so we do but that kind of means backing up and starting over again. I that backing-up place, my beloved theatenes divorce. And it really seemed like a threat. Mentioned, then apologized for and always mentioned when when he was angry. We finally ( I thought) worked out in counseling that he ahd tuend a corner and was willing to really work on things. This was two months ago--Thanksgiving comes and goes and so does Christmas and then out of the blue, after acting like everyhting was wonderful while my parents was here, he turns on the "I want a divorce" stuff again.

To make a long story short, it was because he was hurt and angry about very specific things. VERY SOLVABLE specific things. But this time he's decided to move out. And without even a warning! We went to counsleing, he promised to play fair, and then yesterday, I take a nap and hwen I wake up he's gone. Whcih I acutlaly thought nothing of--assumed he's taken a walk or something. It took another couple of hours to find the note he' left on my computer.

I'm crushed. I'm barely barely back to "normal" (in fact I'm fighting a relaly nasty thrush bloom and today is the firts day where talking asn't been painful in quite a while)-assumoing nomrakl oincludes not being able to swallow. I have this Russian Roulette (only worse odds) of whether I'll get a recurrence in the next year, and now I am dealing with this. Wihtout making a list, I'be gone through some other pretty serious losses in my life before this too adn I just feel like there is a limit to resilience.

He was what I wanted to live for and why I fought so hard.

I have moments of wishing I just hadn't bothered.

Nelie
What can I say, I'm so sorry that it has worked out like this for you. Many of us are dealing with similar if not as direct as yourself.
I can only say that for yourself get as much help as possible and remember you are the victim here, NOT THE PURBRUTATOR...
I wish you every success in getting through this time, we are pulling for you.
Come and join the other troubled souls on the island, there are no judges there, it is just cyberspace chill out zone...
Sunshine... love and hugs
Helen

NELIE:
This is indeed emotionally crushing. But you must maintain the will to fight. GET ANGRY, VENT, then pick yourself up and carry on.
This household will be praying for you...
Darrell

Nelie --

A similar thing happened to a friend of mine many years ago -- she had serious breast cancer (well, it's always serious but this was diagnosed late and back when treatments were very very radical). She was very, very sick. Her husband, whom she had supported unconditionally in his career as a big-name correspondent for a major news magazine, couldn't handle the fact that now SHE needed support. So he walked out. Like that. And left her with the cancer and the pieces.

With her friends and family she made it through treatment. She went on and had a great life -- I used to show her dog at the big dog shows, and we had a lot of fun over the years. It was her husband that was a loser! (and showed himself to be a creep, too...).

You will get through this, too -- we are all rooting for you!

Gail

Nelie,

I can't imagine what you're going through right now. I do wish that your counselor had adopted the "swift kick in the butt" approach with your husband -- what he's doing is inexcusable (but as Gail notes, he's not alone in his self-absorption). Serious illness has a tendency to show what people (including caregivers) are made of, and unfortunately, the results are not always what we would hope for.

Please remember that there are MANY people here who are continuing to pull for your complete recovery. I hope you have other family members who can be there for you as well. If your husband can't deal with this situation, it's his loss and a sorry reflection on his character.

Cathy

Nelie, every post I have read of yours showed your strength and determination. There are lots of people sending you more of the same. Amy

Nelie,

I am giving advice that I should take myself but as I am sure you know it is always easier to see from the outside.

All my life I have tried to look at things that at the moment seem so bad and wrong and try to imagine whatever good reason they might have for occuring. Down the road you might find that this was something that had to happen to give you a chance to have something else much more valuable.

The truth is I think he is a shit! Plain and simple and as I keep trying to tell my husband you need to live for yourself. From within you comes the will to live and that is where you need to reach now.

We have talked about this before when you have visited the island and you have showed amazing strength in your posts here. Hang onto that strength and lean on us and you will make it through. Your value in this world is determined by you and you alone and no one can take that away from you!

Hell, you are a New Yorker!! Born to be bold and tough so hang onto that and you will make it through this. As Amy so well reminded me yesterday, we can only control ourselves and sometimes we just have to let go of those things that we cannot control.

You are bright and witty and a wonderful support here. We have been lucky to know you. You are loved by people you have never even met and there are os many things out there for you to still experience. A friend of mine told me when I feel the need to kick the crap out of someone or something to get a baseball bat and beat the shit out of a tree. Doesn't help the tree much but it does wonders for me.

We are all here whenever you need us. If you email your phone number around many of us will even call you for a chat. I would come and visit but I suffer from a rare disease called southern bloodfreezeitis that prevents me from crossing the Mason-Dixon from September through May! (HEHEHE) But we are always just a keystroke and mouse click away sp HANG IN THERE!!!

You have an army of support behind you 24/7/365!

With Love Always,
Cindy

Nelie,
He could also be grieving the life he had with you prior to the cancer and anger is one of the stages of grief (as well as confusion and several others). My wife had a nervous breakdown after I recovered - the disease is very hard on the caregivers. I even had close friends who abandoned me because seeing their own mortality through me was too much for them.

It would also be quite natural for you to be suffering from depression from the disease as well.

But as Cindy, Amy, Cathy and others have said - we are your extended family and are here for you. We're pulling for you both.

Nelie,

Be strong. You have a lot to live for and a lot to offer. Look at this site and see the many people you have touched. We support you unconditionally. You have many friends.

John

Nelie my dear hang in there and be as strong as you know that you are and always remember you cannot control what others do or say but you DO control as to how you respond and in the end that gives you the ultimate control, "this too shall pass" and you will be much better for it . You have already proved to be a fighter so continue the good fight my dear.
Love and support always Lenny

Nelie,
It is really heartbreaking being deserted by someone whom you have loved so dearly. We can only manage things within our control and for things that are beyond our ability to control, let go. The marital relationship of a couple is something outsiders can hardly understand or give advice. Marriage counsellers may help to some extent but when one party has become stony,the other should learn to be strong to face the adversity. Nelie, this is not the end of the world and you still have a lot of friends supporting you.

Nelie,

Every time I placed a post you always replied with encouragement and support and I am very grateful and appreciative. I cannot understand why your husband would leave a caring and loving person as you at a time when you need his help the most. He absolutely has no sense of decency, caring or mercifulness.

From my own experiences as a caregiver for about a year now, it takes a lot of strength and courage to be a caregiver to a cancer patient but a real man does not cut and run, cowards do.

You are a very strong person to fight H/N cancer and breast cancer at the same time and you have the strength to overcome this and fight on.

As others have said, we are your extended family and friends and we are here to support you now and always.

Vin

Nelie, I am sorry to hear you are going through this stress. Pick up the pieces and live for YOU! I know it is a lot easier said than done, my thoughts are with you. Love, Carol p.s. New York is not that far from Baltimore, if you would ever want to hook up somewhere in the middle!

Nelie
I just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you.... I cannot imagine how you must be feeling.
Maybe a few days away from home will let him know just what he is giving up ....a great girl with a great big heart!
Take Care
Marica

Nelie - it really is horrible that someone you care about so much has shown themselves to be so cold and disrespectful. There are no excuses for what's he's done and how he's done it.Sounds like there is a lot going on that has nothing at all to do with you.

I agree with Vin who said you have always answered questions and made comments on this site that illustrate, plain and simple, what a wonderful and loving person you are.

You are sure carrying more than your fair share of all different kinds of pain right now. Hoping, when you are ready, that you feel that speck of light and wisdom that is in all of us, get stronger and help you move forward.

Thank you for all the help and warmth you have given to me and everyone who participates in this forum.

Mary

Hi Nelie,
I agree with Gary, your husband is also feeling many of the feelings we patients get, especially the "homesick" feeling for our old lives. His actions are wrong and unfair to you, he is in the wrong. But be careful to go slow with putting an end to it, leave a door open for him if he manages to get through his emotional crisis. I recently had a close friend that had kind of dissapeared during my treatments come to me and confess that my cancer scared her. She said that her fear of me dying was to much for her to handle it so she put distance between herself and me. She apologized and I told her she had nothing to apologize for, we all deal with our emotions in different ways.
I hope it gets easier for you, remember, that which doesn't kill us only makes us stronger.
Love,
Minnie

Nelie, Are you O.K. today? Amy

Thanks for asking Amy. Its been a hard day. We went togeht to couples counsleing and I had hoped maybe that could turn things back around but it made it even clearer to me how far out the door he is. Right now I'm just trying to figure out how I can afford to keep the house on my salary.

In the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous they call it the "miracle of reconcilliation". Although this is not a drinking issue there are many parallels between the recovery programs for both. In many ways cancer is like a "tornado roaring through the lives" of the caregivers. I would view that fact that he is even showing up for counseling as a positive step. Allow him a little more grace (and space) to get over his resentments. The normal grieiving process can take anywhere between 6 months and several years.
Think baby steps.

It's been said here many times that you can be cancer free but you are never free fron cancer. It's bad enough for a spouse to watch their beloved go through this and then add on their own mortality fears as well. Not even getting into the shattered dreams, fortunes, etc. Give it some breathing space and trust that God has a perfect plan for this.

Focus on what can be changed in you and not him. Stay out of the future and take it one day at a time.

Hi Nellie,

Everyone here has given you such good advice and support, not sure I can add anything more. I just wanted you to know that you're in my thoughts and prayers. It's not fair to you with all you've been through, but unfortunately life is not fair a lot of times. I'm hoping he's just going through a momentary lapse of sanity and realizes what's at stake here and what he could lose (you). As Gary said, take it one day at a time. My gut feeling tells me he will come back. Hang in there Nellie.

Hugs,

Shelley

Well Gary, you gave good advice there I think.
On the day when I was going to see a lawyer and had really decided my marriage was over, he apparently had an attack of conscience and started making some noises about staying to work things out. I let him know pretty quickly that if he stayed it was to work things out, not to waffle around more, which meant he had to agree to go back to counseling (and HE had to call the counselor for an appointment so he couldn't later act like he was pressured into it by me). He agreed and he did call.

More importantly he had a day of just being reflective himself and actually seemed to genuinely realize how much he'd closed himself off to me emotionally during this whole cancer battle BECAUSE of the cancer being so scary. He was really genuinely remorseful. This is something I really had come to beleive he would never realize or really feel any remorse for and I'm still amazed he hsa seen it and how much pain it caused me.

Of course there's still a world of stuff to work on between us right now, I'm still leery of trusting him totally at this point but you were right that I couldn't see what the future would bring when I made that last post, Gary.

I'll tell ya - the caregivers have it much worse than we do - hard as it is to believe. Give him LOT'S of space. It takes time to work through these things. Maybe he should consider a support group for caregivers. Sometimes it is helpful to know that you are not alone.

It sounds like things are going to work out ok.

I did receive 8 months of LCT (Lay Christian Counseling) training several years ago (before the cancer adventure) and never knew quite why I took the course since my church uses only professional counselors. It was more of a "people helping" type of thing.

PS - watch out for those ultimatims they are never a good thing - multiple choices vs consequences and appropriate boundaries are a healthier way to approach this.

He should have been in a support group for caregivers a year ago. I'm still having health issues, but the worst are over. He's not someone big on support groups anyway (I tried to get him to go to the caregiver support group here several times and he wasn't interested).

As far as ultimatums, I didn't see myself as giving an ultimatum--it was setting aboundary though. He had already put me through hell announcing he was leaving, and actually leaving for several days, and then saying he wanted to stay at the VERY last minute, but fater saying he wouldn't come back to counseling. I didn't want him thinking he could stay and keep the hell ongoing about whether he really wanted to be there ir not without even getting counseling help. To me that WAS an appropriate boundary at that point.

I didn't really say the marriage would be over if he moved out just that I was going to get a good lawyer and I suspected we wouldn't reconcile once lawyers got involved.

Nelie,
Let me explain something to you about lawyers (I have divorced twice). It is an "adversarial justice" system. They make their money insuring that you are both good and pissed off at each other - no matter how civil and well intentioned things start out. They especially love the "discovery" phase (to discover how much THEY can plunder) and the 4 way meetings over stuff at $250 to $500 and hour -portal to portal (i.e. make sure you get lawyers close by -if it comes to that). Most states have community property laws so lawyers are of minimal use anyway (try a paralegal or one lawyer if this suits you). Custody of children, spousal support and vast real estate holdings being another matter.

An interesting contrast between criminal court and family court is that in criminal courts "bad" people are on their best behaviour while in family court "good" people are on their worst.

Not unlike your situation, my wife spoke with an attorney when I was bottoming out in post Tx and I was disappointed and very offended by that and it took a LONG time to get get past it and redevelop bonds of trust.

There is a fine line between ultimatums and healthy boundaries - only you can decide. It is important though to "respond" rather than "react" and also to put yourself in the shoes and mental state of the other person if at all possible. Maybe you should go to a caregivers support group to hear their side of it - you may gain more insight and empathy for your husbands situation. I can tell you also that men don't do well with helplessness which is the cornerstone of caring for a cancer patient. We are impotent to protect our spouse -it is extrememly demoralizing. Men typically react by "going into our cave" (John Gray) or closing down (as you put it). We are masters of finding solution and when we can't, or if it is impossible, it drives us crazy. We spend much processing it (or attempting to). Then we go into into guilt that we haven't done enough (and America is a "guilt" based culture to start out with -contrasted with "shame" based Asian cultures).

Why doesn't he want to go back to counseling? Does he not like the couselor? Does he feel ganged up on? Are his feelings really being heard? Good couselors are hard to find and both of you should participate in the selection and pre counseling interview. There should also be an agenda of what goals you want to achieve in counseling. Baring your soul to a stranger is not the easist thing. We are all flawed -some deal with it better than others. Maybe the counselor could enlighten him on the benefits of a caregivers support group, or maybe find a smaller, more intimate group with a private counselor. At this point a third party suggestion may be more effective.

I have had bad experiences with counselors and fired a few in past years. They should NEVER offer direct advice, only choices and consequences. Pitting one of you against the other is another counselor "sin" right up there with divorce lawyers.

Another thing that I learned in counseling training, actually in a boundaries workshop, is that at times, "geographical separation" is necessary (and a healthy boundary in itself). Some times you just need some space to reflect on things and realign perspective - not necessarily to plot the divorce!

I am not trying to give you any advice - just things to ponder. I have been an AA member now for almost 11 years and we have a saying "think think think" (before you speak or do). It works well for me if I practice it.

Gary, He likes the counselor. In fact, he insisted we switch to this counselor when we were seeing another one. And this counselor is a good one (I've also had my bad experiences with counselors in the past) but he calls us BOTH on things and also helps us be kinder and more compassionate. Mainly, though, hubby has not wanted to see the counselor when he's had so much of his body (I was going to say "one foot" but that doesn't quite give the picture) out the door that he isn't willing to do the work. So aksing him to call the counselor if he stayed was my was of saying "are you in it anough to do the work". If not, we really do need to be separated.

As for what you said about lawyers, I worked as a community mediator for many years so I hear ya. But one of the main issues in our marriage is that hubby has a hard time negotiating, also there are some issues of support,as I see it, given the medical bills I am facing. I've ben through two prior divorces too where I either used a mediation lawyer or we just agreed and used one lawyer. But when you are in remission from two kinds of cancer, either one of which may come back, the terrain looks a little different in terms of taking care of yourself. Anyway, thankfully it hasn't come to that and hopefully will not.

Wow, Nelie, you are one strong lady! I am amazed at how much you have had to deal with and yet, you are still coping, and coping pretty well! Boundaries are a good thing, especially for people who don't negoiate well and espec. for those who like to bully to get their way. I have no special insight into marriage or divorce (been there done that, more than once!), but I am impressed at how calm you seem & how you are taking care of yourself. You are very strong, whether you know it or not! Hang in there. - Candace

Nelie, Having been through something like your situation, I have a little advice, it's free (and worth every penny!) Make plans and arrangements to live without him, but leave the back door to your heart open just a bit, just in case.

Best of luck in whatever transpires...
Andrea

Nelie,
I've read your posts, and want to send you my support.
You've been through so much, and your husband has too, but with the help that you are seeking as a couple, it is what you both owe one another.
If it doesn't work, you will know that you did all you could do. And, hopefully, if it does work, you will find one another again.
Love Always,
Mandi

Hi Nelie -

Gosh girl, you have been through the ringer. I can't imagine going through both HNC PLUS Breast cancer. Please hang in there. You can only control your own actions - not hubby's. You are right to set your boundaries and remember to respect any boundaries hubby might set as well. It takes a tremendous amount of respect and trust to get through any day of marriage when things are 'normal' -- add cancer to the mix and well, it's just down right difficult.

As a caregiver, I would like to say that the emotions I have had to deal with during the past year have scared me to death. My hubby, Kenny, and I have been married nearly 28 years and he is absolutely my best friend - so when I found myself angry and hostle about his cancer, it was terrifying.

Here's the honest truth -- cancer changes people.

It changes the person with the disease and it changes everyone that loves you. From day one I told Kenny that HE did not have cancer -- WE have cancer. At the time, I don't think he got what I was trying to say - but today I know he get's it.

I live day to day wondering if I am a wife or a widow. The thought of losing the love of my life, my partner, my very best friend was the most frightening thing I have ever had to face and it is natural to want to run away from that thought.

While caregivers do not have the physical pain of the cancer and treatments, we do have the emotional and mental anguish of watching our loved ones go through hell. Most of us want to protect our loved ones and just want to make things better. Add to this the stress of managing health care for something as intense as cancer, plus keeping the household running and constantly communicating with family and friends about Kenny's health, well ... it sometimes is more than I think I can handle. But .. taking things one day at a time - literally - helps. And it all works out.

Gary has some excellent points and putting things into the AA culture is a super way of tackling the feelings.

Don't worry about the world coming to an end tomorrow - it's already tomorrow in Australia!

Hang in there.
Carol

I just wanted to thank everyone who posted here and post a brief update. Hubby had pangs of guilt that seem to have really changed things--at least so far (I'm going to still be a little unsure of this for a while which is probably reasonable at this point). We're still together and back in couples counseling and he's being more emotionally supportive of the physical challenges I still face than he ever was during the worst of my treatment.

This is a lonely disease sometimes and it's a shame it made both of feel estranged from each other on top of everything else, but maybe we're over the worst of that. I'm grateful, as always, for the support I found here when I needed it.

Nelie

Nelie,

I am glad to hear things are at least moving forward. The end result is often different than the desired result but stagnation never solves the issue(s). It has been said that time heals all but the truth, in my opion, is that time does nothing without some effort (on both parts). You are so right, this is a lonely disease. Even in the arms of those you love the most, there is still a sense of loneliness when the disease implications enter the thought process. Life is never the same as before cancer but it doesn't have to be different than what you want it to be...you just need to have the resolve to make it that way! As Jimmy Valvano historically said, "NEVER GIVE UP".

Kind regards,

Ed

Nellie,

I'm quite new to this board and my husband is just at the start of his treatment so I lack perspective about all you two have gone through and am afraid I've no advice to give. Still, I could not let your post go by without replying. I just wanted to let you know that there is another person out here praying and pulling for you. I hope that brings you at least a tiny bit of comfort.

Hillary