Dear all,

As you know, I've been fighting Dennis and his drinking since diagnosis. Instead of things getting better, they have continued to get worse. Well, I'm still trying to figure out my legal rights when it comes to getting him help, but today I thought all of this emotional overload would end. There I go thinking again.

I called his doctor and had a copy of his PET scan results taken on Friday faxed to the house. Imagine my celebration when everything came back clean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO CANCER!!! This from a man drinking close to a case of beer a day and smoking two to three packs of cigarettes also.

I ran around humming, cleaning the house (lord knows it needed it) and planned a nice dinner. When Dennis came in, I was napping. I didn't sleep at all last night, because the results were laying on my mind. Anyway, I follow him to the garage once I wake up, and after getting the boys busy with chores for a few minutes, asked him, "If there was any news I could give you right now that would give you the strength to stop getting drunk daily, what would it be?" He said, "I don't know". I gave him the report, and waited on pins and needles while he read it. When done, he casually tossed it on his work bench, looked and me and repeated, "I don't know."

My whole world collapsed. How in the hell can somebody go through the stuff that he has, and still not be positive over a negative report??????????? I'm so mad....and hurt.....and depressed.........and MAD right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I fumed, and to piss me off further, began to cry. He looked at me like I was from another planet! He asked me what I wanted him to do! After explaining for the millionth time that all I want is a normal life where he doesn't drink himself into oblivion every night, I was met by the same old face. One that says, ok you've said your piece, now leave me alone, or I'll make life hell.

I came in the house crying. My boys wanted to know what was going on, and I told them to ask their father. They both looked at me as to say "yeah, right!" and walked away. Later, Coley wanted to know if we could spend the night at a motel, because he was expecting a blow-out.

I'm so tired guys. I've been with this man for 16 years. We've been separated twice over the drinking, but the last one really turned him around until the dx of cancer. Since then, it is a constant pity-party. One I was never allowed to wallow in, or I was called "weak.....neurotic....etc".

I'm so washed up with this. What would you do?

I told him that there were people on this site who would gladly give up an arm, leg, lung, kidney.........anything!....just to get the results that he has. It washed over him like I had said nothing.

I think of Packer at a time like this. Bless him, he has been through so much more, but always stays upbeat and optomistic. I just want to pound the shit out of my husband!!!!!!!!!

Mandi

I know how you feel. My husband was diagnosed with SCC of the soft palate on 11/20/01, since then he has had surgery 3 times and two rounds of radiation.
He currently drinks about 12-15 beers a day and smokes two packs of cigars a day! He refuses to see what this is doing to his body.
He has an appointment with his ENT on 12/17 to discuss his options since this last round of radiation did not work the way they had hoped.

Dear Mandi,
I have said this before but until you get to an Alanon meeting you will never understand the disease of alcoholism. Your husband has it. I am so sorry for what you are going through but no tantrums or tears are going to change him. You are just making yourself miserable.....for nothing. It is a DISEASE and you can't cure it!
I'm sorry, Mandi, but that is the way it is.
God Bless,
Judy U
Am delighted about the scan results tho!

Judy,
I want to understand the power of Alanon, but several people that I've talked to say that their main purpose of the program is to ignore the afflicted.
Belive me! I've ignored, belittled, plead, cried, bribed and anything else you can think of to change this man.
If your program is different, then PLEASE let me know.
Mandi

Hi Mandi,

The following words need a disclaimer: I have never had to deal with an alcoholic family member. I have little experience counciling couples with serious marriage problems. I Do not claim to know exactly what you should do.

With the disclaimer written I ask myself what am I writing for.....I am not sure. I had to. I want to help. Here goes.

The only person we can change is ourselves and perhaps our children to some extent. Once anybody is past a certain age (this is probably variable) then the ONLY person that can cause change is themself. From what you have described, I see a man that is fighting his own demons, using his drug of choice to escape and in my personal opinion needs outside professional help if he is going to make it.

You pretty clearly and rightfully are frustrated and that is a waste of time (something we all know is too valuable to waste.) I really hate suggesting this but it is the only thing that makes sense to me and that is for you to physically step away from the situation for enough time to figure out the long term solution. I say I hate suggesting that for all kinds of reasons. Marriage is a mighty important thing and I do not advocate breaking them up. On the other hand clearly there are marriages that aren't working.

You have gone from wife to scared wife to caregiver, to babysitter and at the same time raise your kids. Now you have to be therapist and rehab counsellor too? Nope your plate is full in fact if you are not careful your plate is going to crack.

He isn't helping. Something major will probably have to happen before he'll get back in gear. I'm not able to help him, and I don't know if I am helping you. BUT Be very sure that I am really concerned for the kids.

I wish it would get better soon.

Hi Mandy,

We've corresponded before, I had hesitated to say what Mark just stated above...But...Having had been through the alcoholism, crazyness that my ex wife had become, trying to get counseling for her, and finally winding up in counseling myself, I found the only solution was to put an end to a bad situation and separate myself from her and her destructive habits. Especially when I realized she was still merrily drinking herself into oblivion every day, writing on the walls and insisting she was normal and that I was the one with the problem. And I was the one seeing a shrink on how to cope with her and "understand her state of mind"? Excuse me? What was wrong with that picture.

"Leave me alone or I'll make life Hell?" Sounds like it's already there pretty much. Maybe in his mind, his life hasn't hit bottom far enough to make him change. But it sounds like you're about at the bottom. When the kids want to stay at a motel, maybe it's a sign that it is time to change locations. I know it's a tough decision to make, made even worse by the fact he's gone through the cancer wringer. But that does not give him any right to put you and your family through what you are going through. At the end of the day, you have to honor your health, your mental sanity and your kids' health and mental sanity. If Dennis hadn't gotten treatment for the cancer, it would have killed him. If he's not going to get treatment for his alcoholism, he needs to understand there's consequences to that also. If he doesn't believe the consequences are bad enough to quit drinking, then that should be his problem, not yours.

Ex had plenty of warning, gave her many opportunites to change. In the end, she's still drinking her gallon of vodka a day, smoking her 4 packs of smokes, acting crazy. I've since re-married to a wonderful woman, started a new life. But I kept the life insurance on her - - given her current habits, even though I've statistically only got a 50/50 chance of surviving the next 5 years, I give my self better odds at longevity than I give her.

Step back, look at your posts and notes as though you hadn't written them, and ask yourself "what would you advise this person."

Somehow, I don't think your advise would be to stay the course and keep dealing with it like you are.

Mandi take care of yourself.
Bob

Hi Mandi,
no support group is foolproof and they are full of humans trying to do the best they can and be helpful, much like this group. What gives us a source of strength and a connection to our higher power is the power of the community in the group. You will find that at Alanon. You may find that one person or persons that God will speak to you through them on what to do.

In the counseling and boudaries classes I have taken, geographical distance is oftentimes required to resolve these kinds of severe problems.

Paul O., in the Big Book, stated that "..your level of serenity is inversely proportional to your level of expectations".

For your children to suggest staying at a motel is a very powerful thing. Heed them. Children often see things far more clearly than we adults. They are far less jaded and don't rationalize things the way that we do.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome. That is applicable to both of you.

You may wish to start your journey with the Serenity Prayer:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference."

This means that you can't change your husband and all you can change is yourself.

When you go to Alanon remember that you want to look for the similarities, not the differences, in the stories you hear. Do not take other peoples inventory. You are going there for you, not them.

AT this point in time you may have to "let go and let God"...

Hello Michelle,

After reading all the responses to your original post I don't know how to say what I want to say!!

You, Shane and Cole deserve to be treated like the decent people you are. I don't believe anything you do short of leaving him will wake him up. I have been married 32 years to a wonderful woman and I can't fathom treating her or my kids the way Dennis is treating you and his boys. Remember you are a very strong woman!!! If you keep letting him beat you down I'm afraid of
what it will do to you long term. I am just an ordinary guy who has been watching this go on for far to long. It's your decision and I will respect whatever decision you make. It kills me to see you and your boys suffer like you are!!!

You have helped me through my journey more than anyone else. I love you for that. Step back and take a good look at what your going thru. Is it worth it? You deserve nothing but the best!!!!

Love Ya, Danny Boy

Dear Mandi,
You are getting a lot of good advice here. I agree that some physical separation might be the only solution. I am still backing Alanon......reread what Gary had to say.....I start each day with the Serenity Prayer and somedays I start each HOUR with it!
I hate to see your marriage fall apart but it's time to put you and the boys first.
God bless you and we love you,
Judy U

Mandy.

You can change no one but yourself.

Get yourself and kids to the next available meeting, find yourself a sponsor, and take one day at a time.

Instead of worrying about Denny, worry about your kids and the impact this will have on their lives. Maybe it is too late for Denny; it certainly is not too late for your children. OR YOU.

Only you can make the change. Nobody else.

Harsh words? Maybe. But heartfelt too. You know what needs to be done, now go do it!!

Wishing you the best.

Sincerely,
Donna

I thank all of you for your help. Danny Boy, you know I love you too! And Dee, you are my sis! Love runs deeper here than in my "real" world. I don't know what I would do without you two, especially....and really don't want to even think about it.

You've all inspired me so much. I know this is going to be hard. I have to walk out on the only man I've ever loved.........but, if I can't get anything positive for the boys in return, than I've lost it all. It's way beyond me, and my feelings. Now he's messing with the children.

We will be going to North Carolina the week following Christmas to visit his sister, oldest son, Mother etc. I've already given them the low-down on his condition and they have agreed to confront him while I take the kids to a friend's house a couple of hours away for a night or two. I have to say that this is his final chance at entering rehab on his own. From the preliminary information that I have, this is the only choice that I have in Maryland. Yes, I can call the cops, and they will take him away for a "cooling-off" period, but unless he physically hurts me or the boys, there is nothing I can do, but leave, and tell the judge that I didn't desert him, but rather left because I was in "fear" of being hurt. If I don't follow the protocal to the letter, he can fight me for my boys. And ABSOLUTELY NOTHING will take my babies from me.

God bless you all, and if I can't post between now and then, please know that your positive feedback has given me the strength to do what has to be done.

We won't go hungry.....we will work through this one way or another.

Mandi

Mandi,

Many have offered you sound advice here. I can't add anything to that. The reality is that right now there isn't much you can do for your husband. You can, however, do alot for your sons. I would encourage you to consider what would be best for them and what can you do for them. Alanon may or may not be the right answer but those involved may have a better sense of where you can go to look for it.

I have always been amazed at the strength a mom has when it comes to her children. The road ahead is a difficult one. I know that, because you walk it with and for your children, you will be able to. I have no answers for you. I can offer you my prayers; for your husband to find the healing he needs, for you to have the strength you need and to find the direction that would be best for you, for your boys that they will know the love you have for them and with that be able to grow into good men, and for all of you as a family to once again have the joy found in a healthy family.

Peace,

Fr. Mike

Hi Mandi
Well this might not be what you want to hear, but been there, done it, read the book, GOT THE TEE-SHIRT, forget for the moment all your feelings for your husband, and all the good things that have been, and ASK YOURSELF what do you want now at this moment in time? Don't say that is selfish, it's not, as my friend says, "This is not a rehearsal, GET REAL, this is your life." Don't blow it girl! Put some space in your life, get back in the driving seat, if I sound hard believe me I'm not, I haven't found the courage to walk yet but I haven't got kids...
My prayers, my love and all my hugs across the water to you and your family.
Helen

HI Mandi, Newer member here but wanted to add my 2 cents. You've gotten excellent advise. You can't make him stop drinking/smoking. He is the only one that can do that. I'm married to a former alcoholic/drinker who DID quit after 40+ years. Yes we had discussed it but nothing ever happened. It had to be his decision and when it the time was right for him, he did it.

Think Ann Landers or Dear Abby (one of them said it), are you happier with him in or out of your life? Yes it may be hard for you and the kids but it sounds like the kids are already paying for it...living with an alcoholic who "blows up" is no picnic. You all deserve better....

Mandi,
I have waited to reply on this one as it brought back some pretty intense memories of childhood. My father was and still is an alcoholic. He loved his kids and family but loved the alcohol and himself much more. He could never give it up for more then a few months. When my brother and I were 15 and 17 we told our mother that if she didn't leave him then we were going to live with our granparents in Conn., that we just couldn't take it any longer. We used to hide in closets, go to motels, etc., we did it all. Mom finally choose us over our father and she never looked back. It made life better for my younger brother and sister and my last two years of high school much more enjoyable. One thing I have never been able to get past is the question of why my mother didn't take us out of such an unhealthy environment earlier. I respect and love my mother to much to ever ask her this question, she suffered enough, but listening to the advice you're being given on this board may help you avoid some of this "baggage" for your sons. I am 42 and the pain of living with my alcoholic father is as strong today as it was when I was young.
Hope this helps some.
Minnie

Thank you Minnie for telling your experience. I can imagine how hard it was to recall.

Being on this end, and seeing how your mother didn't act sooner, I can only tell you my side of reasoning for that.

I have kicked Dennis out, and I've moved out. Each time he sobered up and I glimpsed the man that I fell in love with. Don't get me wrong.....I know how "Jerry Springer" that sounds, but he is a wonderful man, with an awful ailment. He has a heart of gold, that is eaten up with the alcohol. This man literally sent my girlfriend $500 for her children's Christmas, because he thought they would do without, because she is in the midst of a horrible divorce.

As your Mother probably felt, there are the oaths of marriage that you hold sacred, and the hope of a normal life that you get to see every now and then, when the spouse responds in a normal way.

Please, PLEASE, don't think I'm preaching. I'm still trying to figure where we went wrong, and WHY?

I'm coming to the conclusion that alcoholism is as bad a disease as cancer. Only alcoholism makes you feel better in the process of dying.

Love,
Mandi

Hi Mandi,
Please believe that I wasn't trying to judge you on this, sorry if I came across that way. Put in the same position, with how much I love my husband, I don't know that I could leave him either.
I'm very sure that my mom stayed with my dad out of love, she always said he was the only man she ever loved and I believe she still is in love with him and they are both in their 60's now. Although she and I have not discussed it, I know she feels guilty for keeping us there so long so I never ask her about it. She was a fantastic mother and I believe she did the best she could with what she had to work with. I have a feeling that is your case also, that you are doing your best. And your boys know that. Take care Mandi.
Minnie

No, Minnie, I didn't think you were judging at all. Before this happened to my husband, I used to look at women (and men) and wonder what in the world was the matter with them for being so weak? Maybe, that's the lesson I was supposed to learn from all this. Spouses of alcoholics are not weak.........most often they are the stronger of the two, but feeling responsible for everything, can sometimes leave you so confused and tired, that you idle, instead of run.

Love,
Mandi

Love,
Mandi

I bet it is overwhelming trying to deal with his behavior and alcoholism on top of cancer and all that can take out of the patient AND the caregiver. Maybe a shock is what he needs, sometimes we don't appreciate what we have until we don't have it any longer. Maybe some time without you and the boys would make him come around. It also might make him think more about his health and stop the smoking and drinking. I wish I had some brilliant advice for you, I can't imagine dealing with all this on top of cancer. Take care,
Minnie

Mandi,
All of us who have quit drinking have hit a bottom (or at least what we perceived as a bottom) and that was the first step towards recovery. We had to come to a point where we admitted that we were powerless over alcohol.

What you have done is very courageous and difficult. Rescuing and enabling are far easier paths to take but rarely produce positive results. The path you have taken is his best chance at survival. Do not accept any hollow promises for change. Let him demonstrate his committment to recovery on his own before reconciling. We alcoholics are charming and very adept at talking our way in and out of situations. For AA to work there are a few principles that we have to follow. The first are that we have to be honest, open minded and willing (HOW). We have to go to meetings, work the (12) steps, read the Big Book and be accountable to a sponsor (another alcoholic of the same sex with 12 step experience). Professional counseling wouldn't hurt either as alcoholism is merely a symptom of the real disease which is buried deep in the core of the person. It is a LIFE LONG PROCESS.


Your remark about being the (over) responsible one is a common "long suffering spouse" comment. Being over responsible can lead to a lot of resentment as I am sure you are feeling. Add this to the grief you must be feeling about the loss of your previous life, in spite of how imperfect it was, and that is too big of a burden for one person to bear. That is why I beg you to find a support group that you are comfortable with. Many others have been on the same path as you, just as we cancer patients and caregivers find strength just knowing we are not alone through OCF, so you will find comfort in knowing the you are not alone in dealing with a sick spouse. Community is a tremendous asset. Have you been to an Alanon meeting yet?

Your comparison of alcoholism and cancer are right on. They are both diseases that can lead to death (or at very least to make life unmanageable). I have had much time to reflect on my cancer and it is a lot like alcoholism in that I will always be a cancer survivor (or whatever you want to call it) as much as I will always be a (recovering) alcoholic. I am so grateful that AA gave me the tools to get through this cancer business without having to drink, abuse prescription pain meds or have a major pity or fear party.

I don't think that alcohol will make you feel better though, it only serves to mask the pain or stop the voices inside our heads. People who "feel good" through the use of alcohol are the "normal" ones -we don't have that luxury.

Manid, sending you and the boys HUGE HUGS!!!!! I hav been offline for a bit while we coped with the holiday, doctor appts & treatment plans. I hope the intervention did some good but no matter, you have taken positive steps for you and the boys. You cannot change your husband, you cannot stop his drinking - he is the only one that can do that.

Hang in there and keep us updated. There are obviously a LOT of people here who care what happens to you and your family!

Dear All,

First, thank you for your concern. I know it is very hard to support someone else while dealing with this disease. You are each special people that I pray for every night.

Dennis promised the world after his intervention...but did the usual song and dance....played us all on everything....and then fell right back into his old routines.

Shane and Cole are tired....so am I. Don't get me wrong, they love the "sober" Dad as much as I do. Unfortunately, that personality doesn't appear very often anymore. That's saved for his job.

If I "rock the boat" and identify his drinking problem, at all, then I'm in for a fight. And the boys suffer from his attitude.

Why are men like this

Mandi

The correct phrase is why are "people" like this. My second wife was an unreformable alcoholic, and it eventually after years of joint counseling etc. got to the part where I just had to get out of Dodge City. We divorced and it was painful. But don't think that alcoholism has a preference to men or women as your last sentence would indicate... it's an equal opportunity deal, not exclusive to men. He obviously hasn't hit rock bottom yet. The only thing you can change now is you and your situation. The ball is really in your court not his.

You are so right Brian.....once the send button was pushed, I realized where I was wrong.

I'm sorry, I was only thinking in the present tense.

This is not at all a gender observation. Only one that I've lost sight of..Dennis is male, my husband, and I don't have a clue how to wake him up the life around his family.

Mandi

Hi Mandi,
I am sorry to hear about Dennis's relapse. As you have found out - intervention without a committment to the program is a short lived deal. I too had an alcoholic wife who was unreformable and is still out there. Alcoholism doesn't care about gender, social status, race or age. That situation with my ex shortened my life as I am sure that your situation is shortening yours.

I would get tough on it at this point - restraining order, supervised visits, legal separation, etc. Its the only option you have left (based on your remark "but did the usual song and dance....played us all on everything" I take it that this has happened several times already). It may help him finally hit a bottom. Staying with him is rescuing and enabling behavior. At this point you must realize that YOU are the one with the problem - not him -as bizarre as that may seem.

Alcoholism is a cunning baffling and powerful disease. It says in the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous that "The alcoholic is like a tornado roaring his way through the lives of others".

There are a few things that you need to test him on if he makes more promises:
1. He has to be willing to go to any lengths to find recovery. He also needs to be honest and openminded.
2. He has to go regular AA meetings. If he drank every day he should be attending AA everyday and more than 1 meeting a day in the beginning.
3. He needs to find a sponsor and be accountable to that person (has to be a male). Preferably someone with some serious recovery and has worked all the steps.
4. He may need to go into a 30 day "spin dry" program (and maybe even a 3 day detox before that). He may need a residential halfway house program after that.
5. He needs to work the 12 steps. Alcoholism is merely a SYMPTOM of the disease. The steps will allow him to focus on the root cause.
6. He needs to buy a Big Book and read it.
The program is a lifetime journey. One never "graduates"