My Sports Nutritionist (who I have been very happy with throughout my treatment) is highly recommending that I get some IV Vitamin based therapy to help with my recovery. In fact he would like for me to do two treatments a week for the next two weeks. Please note that he says this is for recovery purposes only, not to eliminate any future cancers/problems/etc.

I just finished my last rads a week ago today. I was one of the lucky ones as it did not hit me as hard as the vast majority. My gut it is that much of it is due to:

no chemo,
the latest IMRT/IGRT kit at Sylvester,
my physical/mental shape going into it
My diet during the treatment
plus just got lucky?


Has anyone had any experience with IV Vitamin treatments? If so, I would appreciate your advice as well as any positive/negative experiences.

No experience but it does sound plausible that extra vits might help the body recover faster but like any advice given outside your cancer team I would get their OK before beginning.

Hi! I'm all for doing what you can to help recover, but I would firstly find out what kind of vitamins - and how much, then run it by your rads guy. Why? Because you're still only a few weeks out of rads. I asked my RO when I could start on my vitamins again post radiation, and he said a month - 6 weeks as my vitamins are kick a** and have greens, and antioxidants as well. - I doubled that timeline before I started - why? Because its likely there are antioxidants in the IV therapy (there are in my vitamins) ... This interferes with the radiation doing its job. Radiation is cumulative - at this point it's probably still working a bit... Why ruin that effect.?

Eventually it will be fine - as I do believe diet has a lot to do with healing etc... But his might just be a bit too soon depending on what he's planning to give you. Good luck, and I agree - with your reasoning I too had an easier time of it than most. Take care!

Laz

Not sure if anybody here on OCF will have had IV vitamins since it's not a recognized or validated post TX regime.
I'd be surprised if your radiologist was on board with this, but why not ask? My understanding is that anti oxidants in vitamins can interfere with the radiation mop up. If the RO is on board, then no worries, If not, Then you can decide who is better in giving you advice about radiation effects: your RO or a sports nutritionist.
A clever summary I read about the divergent opinions:
[quote]Cancer patients often feel like a child in a wicked divorce custody battle. The oncologist tells the patient "Don't take that nutrition/vitamin therapy. It is nothing more than expensive urine. And it will reduce the effectiveness of my chemo and radiation therapies." The nutritionist tells the same patient "You need this nutrition/vitamin therapy to counteract that poisonous chemo or radiation therapy. [/quote]
Another factor would be to see if your health insurance company will pay for this IV treatment as they did for radiation and other cancer TXs.
I'm skeptical about it myself simply because all the hits from Dr Google show only quack docs and alternative TX scam clinics offering it.

My local cancer team is OK with it as long as it was post rads. The treatment that my Dietician is recommending is Meyer's IV Therapy. The local DO who can perform the IV treatments wants to run the following test at my first visit with him:


CBC
� CMP
� Food sensitivities and gluten intolerance
� Hepatic ABC
� Thyroid profile
� Hormone panel
� Chronic inflammation (cytoquines)
� ANA
� Diabetes Type II
� NK (activity and quantity)
� Heavy metals

My Dietician (the guy that I have been using and really like) likes the thoroughness of the evaluation but says we want repair before we need to start really digging in to other areas. His comments are that to run some of those tests this close to completing radiation therapy really doesn't make sense but would down the road.

Any thoughts on the above?

Laz,

The Meyer's cocktail (magnesium, calcium, vits B5,B6,B12 and C)should help the fatigue normally associated with radiation and other then the Vitamin C/rads issue I can't see why there would be an issue. I say go for it as long as your RO is good with it.

Your DO I think is likely wanting to run up his billables this month on the testing. The CBC, CMP, Thyroid and Hormone panel I can agree with and encourage (not so close to tx however), the others I don't think you'll find much that you wouldn't already know about your body but then again being thorough isn't a bad thing.

Nutrition is an area most of our medical professionals know little about(http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/health/16chen.html) nor focus on and after treatment it is very important to build the body back up. I think it's very intelligent to work with a nutritionist after cancer as well as your Dr to get a gauge of where you're at post treatment and devise a plan to get back to where you want to be.

Keep us posted Laz.

Eric

While I agree that most doctors don't know much about nutrition, it breaks my heart to see sharp guys like Eric endorse things like the Meyers Cocktail placebo. Woo woo is still woo woo though. Here's Science Based Medicine's take of Meyers Cocktail
[quote]�Myers� Cocktail,� an intravenous infusion of calcium, magnesium, and several vitamins, has all the characteristics of snake oil. There is no reason to predict that it would benefit anyone not suffering from a frank deficiency of one or more of its ingredients, the combination of which is arbitrary. All are easily absorbed through the GI tract, thus raising the question of why they are given intravenously, which is both more dangerous and more expensive than a pill.

The obvious answers are two: the �placebo effect� is enhanced by the invasive procedure, and it is more lucrative for the quack. The Myers� Cocktail champion, Alan Gaby, a former faculty member at Bastyr University, promotes it as a near panacea:

Conditions that frequently responded included asthma attacks, acute migraines, fatigue (including chronic fatigue syndrome), fibromyalgia, acute muscle spasm, upper respiratory tract infections, chronic sinusitis, and seasonal allergic rhinitis. A small number of patients with congestive heart failure, angina, chronic urticaria, hyperthyroidism, dysmenorrhea, or other conditions were also treated with the Myers� and most showed marked improvement. Many relatively healthy patients chose to receive periodic injections because it enhanced their overall well being for periods of a week to several months.

If Dr. Katz lacks the street savvy to recognize the concoction for what it is, he might consider the results of his own trial of the Myers� Cocktail for patients with fibromyalgia. Although his 2006 abstract tortures the data to suggest efficacy, none was found. Since the treatment is implausible in the first place, this amounts to pretty solid evidence against it. Nevertheless, nearly two years later Dr. Katz still peddles Myers� Cocktail at the IMC, or so we gather from the website. He must have �thought more fluidly about the evidence.�[/quote]

What's next: copper bracelets ?
Charm

Thanks for the frank discusion on the topic. The problem as I see it is as follows:

For the standard medical community 80% works and 20% is questionable (take your pick why: Big Pharma, tradition, legal, etc)

For the homeopathic community 80% is bull**** and 20% actually works.

Unfortunately for both, few if any know which fall into the 20% categories above.

The way I look at it is that it is not going to do any harm (with the exception of $$). I am not substituting the IV treatments for anything that my RO is recommending, just additive to the recovery process.

Also to add to the comment above. When I got to the Dayton Medical Center, I first met with one of the Doctors there (her title was Metabolic Medicine/Alternative Therapies PhD Natural Health Doctorate) who proceeded to give me a "Life Blueprint" test.

What that test was pricking my finger for a small sample of blood which she put on a slide that was magnified onto large LCD display. She then started telling me things about my blood "I can tell that you have stress in your life", "Did you mother ever have a miscarriage". I almost got out of my chair to leave the room. I ended up getting into a debate with her for 10 minutes on what a "Life Blueprint" really is (my comment was that it was the same as reading tarot cards or tea leaves). Fortunately when I met with the DO after meeting with her, he must have talked with her as he listened to me speak about my prognosis and said that a Myers Cocktail would be fine. He did not push the other tests on me which would have been an entertaining conversation to say the least.

One point that I found interesting, was that I was telling him that Sylvester (University of Miami) has the latest IMRT/IGRT kit and how I believe it made a big difference in the side effects of my treatment. He then told me that the cancer center at Aventura has a radiation machine that can track the targeted tumor in real time during each Rad treatment (his comment was so that when you breath or move, the machine automatically adjusts).

I am pretty sure that this is not true as I understand that with IMRT/IGRT, they do a CT scan at the beginning of each rad treatment to lock in the location for that specific rad treatment however it does not compensate for any realtime movements that one would make during the respective session. Am I correct or is he correct?

BTW - The entire visit cost me $430 (AAGGHH!!!)

Thanks - Steve

I have been and always will be an advocate for nutrition and supplements, both vitamin, mineral and herbal. Where I don't believe they are a cure for cancer I do believe that getting optimum levels through diet and supplements is key to the body performing at its peak levels.

I look at what's in the Meyer's cocktail (magnesium, calcium, Vitamin C, B5, B6, B12) and how those vitamins and minerals work in the body, especially during recovery, and see that it will only help in the healing process.

Magnesium, B6 and B12 have been shown to increase energy levels in the body and each have been used in studies to fight the effects of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. B6 and B12, along with Niacin (B3) are also the key ingredients to popular energy drinks along with caffiene for good reason...they work. You find them in huge quantities in those energy shots for a reason however (particularly B12), they do not absorb well through the digestive track. B12's best delivery methods are IV and sublingual.

Magnesium is involved in over 300 biological reactions in the body and is an often overlooked and deficient mineral in a large percentage of Americans. Bodybuilders and top athletes use magnesium to help in muscle recovery (normally with a product called ZMA, Zinc, B6 and Magnesium Aspartate) and help energy production in the body. Calcium and Magnesium work synergistically in the body which is why they should be taken together and there is a long history of Vitamin C and its health benefits.

Our bodies need vitamins and minerals to function, that's why we eat, sadly as a society our diets are now severely lacking in key nutrients our bodies need to function. Every top athlete will tell you the benefits of proper nutrition and supplementing, you want your body to perform like a high performance machine, make sure you are giving it the proper fuel. During recovery your body is hypermetabolic (all of us old timers know this) and is burning through calories and nutrients at a very fast pace, it only makes sense to load up in my opinion, especially on the things that will help energy levels.

If you browse through my earliest posts on OCF, you'll see the struggles I had with Cancer Related Fatigue and it wasn't until I started supplementing that I had success in dealing with it. Even when on a fairly high dose of fentanyl (which slows the central nervous system, depressing the cardio vascular system causing poor circulation AND fatigue!) I had success using 5Hour energy shots to properly function for a few hours a day. After finding the active ingredients (B3,B6,B12 and Caffiene) I began supplementing those in my diet (Kola Nut for Caffiene and then taking flush free Niacin, B6 and Sublingual B12) along with magnesium and a score of other supplements. I attribute my nutrition plan and supplements for being able to keep the pace I set for myself and for the physique I've been able to build despite my eating challenges.

Now I don't believe that vitamins and minerals can cure cancer nor do I believe they are a miracle cure for anything, but they are important which is why I will always advocate their usage no matter what delivery method is used.

I do like copper bracelets though, they complete my wife's Wonder Woman outfit so they have given me a sense of well being among other things...

hahaha!

Eric

Eric - Thanks for the comments above. I am in thorough agreement with you especially your first paragraph. I just wish I could find the 20% of the things that work in the homeopathic world as per my previous comments above

As it sounds like you are someone who does not put something in your body without researching it first, can you expand on your comment "taking flush free Niacin, B6 and Sublingual B12) along with magnesium and a score of other supplements"?

Thanks - Steve

I a do most definitely advocate vitamins for health, particularly if it's not something readily available through diet! I don't believe it hs to be in IV form. But whatever floats your boat as long as your RO approves! Good luck!

Laz,

Sure I can, however let me preface this response by pointing out that I am not a Dr. If I were a Dr there's an 80% chance I'd be out of shape ( http://www.health.com/health/article/0,,20411404,00.html)AND know almost nothing about nutrition (as pointed out in the article referrenced in my first post on this thread). When exploring anything that I've posted here please do due diligence and work with your Dr, a nutritionist AND a pharmacist as Dr's and nutritionists/dietitians tend to know very little about drug interactions when it comes to vitamins and minerals(unless they have a couple of cool apps on their iPhone or iPad).

As I've shared I suffered from sever fatigue post treatment, which is very common, and had a hell of a time recovering from treatment and surgery. During treatment and surgery I lossed a total of 70 lbs, taking me from a muscular 210 lbs to a paltry 140 lbs. I was weak, tired and had a terrible time trying to function mentally and emotionally.


Due to complications and side effects from tx/surgery I cannot eat solids very well (missing teeth, half my face and tongue paralyzed, damaged swallowing mechanism from rads/ND and of course dry mouth) so the majority of my nutrition is liquid. To ensure(haha) that I could get the proper nutrients my body needed to rebuild I have to supplement.

Now I "eat" 6x per day using Ensure, blended foods, protien shakes, juiced fruits and vegies etc and track the calories and protien/carb/fat breakdown of my intake. I exercise (lifting, boxing, sprints, stretching etc...) and have a supplement regiment that I've put together with the help of some medical professionals and natureopaths.

My supplement strategy is to optimize energy levels and testosterone production as I suffer from hypogonadism (baseline T levels were 70 ng/dL where normal is between 260 ng/Dl and 1000 ng/dL) and suffered from severe mood swings when taking Androderm patches. I take B3(flush free Niacin), B6, B12 (sublingual), Ginseng (Korean), Zinc, Magnesium Aspartate, Calcium, Kola Nut extract (natural caffiene), CoQ10, Horney Goat Weed, Tribulus Terrestris, coconut oil(medium chain triglyceride, great for energy) and olive oil(long chain triglyceride, good fat, promotes testosterone production).

I also take Vitamin C, D3, tumeric, Fish Oil, Flaxseed Oil, Reservatrol (in wine form ) and a few others.

I do not take every one of these supplements everyday, they are on a specific schedule and I do have blood work done regularly to check my levels as some of these supplements can be toxic at certain concentrations in the blood.

When I started this regiment, my nutrition plan and a rigorous exercise routine in June of this year I was 145 lbs and could barely work a 4 hour day (this was after spending a month in bed after getting sick in April). At the end of October I was 175 lbs, had a 42" chest, 16" neck, 16.5" arms, and a 29" waste. My testosterone levels were 450 ng/dL and I was working an 80 hour week with fantastic energy levels (some of my thoughts and physical exploits during this time were chronicled in my blog on the Coping Anger/Fear forums, Letting the Healing Begin).

Now was it all due to the supplements? No but I do know how I felt and my energy levels without them and it's a stark contrast. Currently I'm a bit off as I'm coming off an injury I suffered when I switched up my training in late October when I was going to train for a marathon, I'm not built for distance running any longer due to a side effect from my surgery (drop foot). My weight is up slightly to 185 lbs and my waist is suffering(currently 31") from the lack of exercise the introduction to large amounts of eggnog (I can't help it, it's like crack to me!!) and a change in occupation and schedule.

Anyway, this may have been more then you bargained for in expanding my comment and for that I apologize, I like to read my comments and pretend I'm smart.

Eric

Okay, swapping vitamin stories is one thing. Actually touting totally bogus stuff like homeopathy (20% true on what planet? try zero)is quite another thing on the OCF forum. It's technically okay since you both acknowledge it's worthless for cancer TX, but homeopathy is worthless for anything.
Note for OCF reader: Quackwatch spells out in detail what is so wrong about homeopathy Homeopathy: the Ultimate Fake It even has typical woo woo responses from the fraudsters
It just goes to show that otherwise reasonable and nice guys can be fooled by fanciful titles and scientific gibberish.
Don't get me wrong, I actually think the ratio of what works in conventional medicine is more like only 50%. The so called cardiologists who are actually plumbers who put in stents instead of prescribing statins for at risk patients and the surgeons who do unnecessary prostate cancer surgery are just as bad as the homeopathic frauds if not worse.
At least it appears Laz will be mainlining real vitamins instead of their homeopathic counterparts, but the IV gimmick should be a dead giveaway of a charlatan.
You two are both strong and young, so it may be fine for you, but I've got to speak up so that others are not mislead in thinking that somehow homeopathy or the Meyer's cocktail have any type of validity at all in the real world.
Charm

Charm,

You crack me up, I love it! I follow Quackwatch myself, used it many times to get perspective on different issues and point me in the direction to find more information before forming my own opinions. I don't find it to be the authoratative end all be all however and do not take the opinions expressed on the site as complete truth all of the time. Like any information out there it has to be taken with the understanding that it may not share the whole picture. I try to get several sides to any issue
before forming my opinion and try to keep in mind that my opinion is just what it is, an opnion that is subject to change when more or better information is found.

Stephen Barrett M.D. is a trained "physchiatrist" (who hasn't practiced in many many years) and where he has a very impressive resume and did get an "honorary" membership to the American Dietetic Association and taught health education at Penn State (not going there) in the 1980's (almost 30 years ago...) I wouldn't take advice on nutrition and training from him. I've read his take on nutrition and vitamin/mineral supplements (Vitamins and Health Foods: The Great American Hustle co-authored by Prof. Victor Herbert, M.D., J.D.) and found exactly the opinions I thought I would from a skeptical psychiatrist and a professor who got his first degree in the 1940's (don't get me wrong though there was some good information and opinions in this book).

I would take my training and nutrition advice from someone who trains extreme athletes to perform at their peak and has their finger on the pulse of "modern" science in that arena. An example would be Susan Borjesson-Newman PHD (B.A. in Human Biology, Masters and PHD in Exercise Physiology) taught at U of Idaho and Wa. State University and does extreme training...sorry a shameless plug for a childhood friend.

Nutrition and supplements should never take the place of medical treatment but it does have more of a place then what Dr. Barrett would have you believe from his (in my opinion)limited view.

Always great to read your thoughts Charm and I love our discussions. Hope you are well my friend...oh and keep taking the Vitamin D3 supplements even though your dosage would be considered unnecessary by Dr. Barrett (http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/supplements.html)



Eric

If you go to sciencedaily.com and search on 'placebo effect' you will see several studies on this - very interesting reading. One article mentions that the 'medical ritual' of taking pills has an intrinsic value in some cases. From other articles I have seen, placebos show benefit to the patient in the areas of pain management, depression and fatigue. Interesting topic, and may suggest that those with differing viewpoints may both be right.

Oh and this is a quote from Dr. Barrett from the article I linked in my last post which shows that both he and I have some common ground

"People recovering from surgery or serious illnesses that have disrupted normal eating habits may also benefit from supplementation."

@ Laz: You mentioned that the IMRT/IGRT kit at Sylvester perhaps made a difference in making radiation treatment more tolerable for you. What is this latest development?

As a caregiver, I never delved into much research prior to radiation once I found out that we weren't working with an identifiable tumor and proton therapy was off the table.

Eric

The feeling is mutual brother. It is so refreshing to have someone on the OCF board who thrived in an environment where categorical judgements were tossed around like so many blows and where you learn to give as good as you get. I have to be so careful with some of the fragile OCF posters who take personal umbrage at having their incorrect and goofy belief systems challenged.
We are in agreement that Steve B and Quackwatch do not cut it as a nutritionist. But I would be remiss in not pointing out that nutrition and homeopathy have nothing in common. One is valid, the other is not. Your oral vitamin regime makes sense, the Meyers cocktail does not. On these points, Steve B and Quackwatch are right on the money.
I almost fell off my chair laughing about your Wonder Woman comment even though her bracelets were not copper

[quote]Her bulletproof bracelets were formed from the remnants of Athena's legendary shield, the Aegis, to be awarded to her champion. The shield was made from the indestructible hide of the great she-goat, Amalthea, who suckled Zeus as an infant. These forearm guards have thus far proven indestructible and able to absorb the impact of incoming attacks, allowing Wonder Woman to deflect automatic weapon fire and energy blasts. Diana can also slam the bracelets together to create a wave of concussive force capable of making Superman's ears bleed. she gained the ability to channel Zeus's lightning through her bracelets as well. Zeus explained to her that this power had been contained within the bracelets since their creation, because they were once part of the Aegis, and that he had only recently unlocked it for her use[/quote].

I'm so glad you have found ways to address the terrible ravages of our TX. However, please don't go over to the dark side of Homeopathy or doctors of philosophy in Natural Medicine woo woo.
Charm

Charm,

Where at one time there was an appeal to hugging trees, wearing paper pants and changing my name to Spirit Warrior it faded after the effects of the vaporizor wore off and I realized how much I enjoyed my life and opted for western medicine

I'm a little bummed that my wife's Wonder Woman outfit didn't come with the authentic she-goat hide bracelets, however I did buy the outfit from the fetish section of Amazon so OCF would get the 6% kickback. Giving back in everyway I can! I wonder if they have any she-goat hide stuff? I'll have to browse!

Eric

Thanks again my brother for saving me from falling into a scenario similar to today's Mike Causey column (a Washington DC must read for federal employees, active or retired).

[quote]Typical of lots of badly wounded warriors, my friend always joked about his lengthy (and obviously painful) rehab. The worst part, he says, was four or five months in the hospital in New Orleans where the two guys on either side of his bed had a steady, long-running verbal duel. Their oratory consisted of two words. One guy would say "F--- You!," and and the other guy would respond with "F--- You!" The wordsmiths kept it up, interrupted only by periods of sleep, for months.

I hope my friend, now living in a retirement center in Alexandria, Va., isn't watching , or reading news coverage of Congress. Why? Because...

If he is paying attention, it might trigger frightful flashbacks of his time in hospital when he was stuck between two one-note dolts who, day after day and month after month, had the same deja vu argument, which in the end settled nothing.[/quote]

Your irascible humor, witty banter and unflagging determination lighten my spirits this holiday season.
Keep the Faith
Charm

Charm, it's always a pleasure my friend, like you I feel fortunate to have someone that doesn't get offended at my over analyzed thought processes and opinions. Healthy discussions and different view points are good.

For the record I do think it's a waste of money going the IV route unless the individual is vastly depleted and could not consume the nutrients orally or sublingually. If that's how Laz wants to spend his cheddar who am I to judge, God knows I've wasted money on more frivolous things...like she-goat hide underpants on Amazon for instance to try and shoot lightning out my drawers!

Hey, Merry Christmas brotha!

All - Thanks for the detailed posts. I appreciate and respect the comments/research that you have all done on the subject. You have all been through much more than I and the stories of your recoveries has been very inspirational for me and my family. I wish you all the best of luck and good karma as you all deserve it.

Eric - Congratulations on the comeback, it sounds like you have been through hell however it sounds like you made an amazing comeback (I am sure that it was and still is a lot of work). BTW - Marathons are fun events, however the training for them is really tough on the body. It may make more sense to do triathlons in order to minimize the running but capture the competitive buzz.

I am going to do three more Meyers therapies over the next 1 1/2 weeks. I guess it is debatable on the upside, however it appears that their is no downside (with the exception of the $$). Since I am not going out to eat in the short term, I can justify the expense from the entertainment budget (though buying organic food for the shakes/soups does add up)

I will keep you all updated on my progress.

This is the first nutrition thread that I can remember in the last decade that did not decline into chaos, where everyone is taking less than an absolute position on things (there are no absolutes in any of this) and where the OCF monitors didn't have to intervene and close the thread. Good information from good sources was exchanged. In the end there were some agreements, and some agreements to disagree, all done in a civil tone.

What would be the chances of the three of you running for the US congress so our government could actually get something done for its citizens again?

Brian

Whenever an argument or fight broke out between my brother,my sister and myself and one of us would plead: But he/she started it, my Mom would just say [quote]It takes two to tango[/quote]
Credit here goes to both EricS and Laz for seeing what we all had in common (hope to recover from this TX) while acknowledging we saw different routes there. But then I'd expect no less from these guys.
Now on to the important stuff: are either of them going to be my best personal time of 3 hours and 15 minutes in the Marine Corps Marathon (before cancer though) or my post cancer record of holding the plank for 13 minutes last year which made me our local gym champ? (all without vitamins except D)
Charm

Brian - A 3:15 marathon is very impressive. I was able to do a 3:38 at the NYC marathon a few years ago but the 23 minutes net difference is huge. Since I had my ACL replaced along with some meniscus repair earlier this year at a lacrosse game , I will not be doing any more marathons unless I want an artificial knee in ten years (according to my orthopedic Dr) . I do plan however on playing lacrosse again in February on the Dade Lacrosse team here in Miami.

Since Eric is much younger than you and I, we will have to see if he can beat the 3:15 benchmark. I also get the feeling that he can more than handle himself in the weight room as well.

Being able to hold a plank for 13 minutes tells us all about your fortitude.

Just to remember how lucky we all are, below is a link to the last article written by the late Christopher Hitchens who just passed away from Esophagus cancer yesterday.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2012/01/hitchens-201201

Laz,

I posted that article last night to my Facebook page, Charm actually posted it on these forums earlier today. Hitchens was a very talented and intelligent man and he will be missed.

As for marathons sadly they are not in the cards for me. A side effect of my mandiblectomy is my left foot (where they harvested my fibula and muscle tissue to rebuild my face) now does not have full range of motion. It's a condition called Drop Foot and even with orthotics it will not correct the issue. Where I used to run decent distance time due to wrestling, I've never ran more then ten miles at a stretch nor timed it when I did. I'm suited for more short and medium distance running due to my build, distances are for the more slender builds in my opinion.
I will tackle the plank time after the holidays and I sweat off my eggnog belly.

Brian, I've learned to never say never but in this case...never.

Eric

Don't forget the magnets ;-)

I have to part company with Eric about vitamins and supplements. IMO they are bullish*t and there is no scientific proof as to their efficacy. In fact they may even be harmful (as they just recently discovered with vitamin E). Supplements are not regulated and the strengths and purity is all over the map so how do you know what you are really taking? What they are, however, is a multibillion dollar a year snake oil business.

You should be able to get all of the vitamins and minerals you need by eating a healthy, well balanced diet. I have heard many (real) doctors state this over the years.

Osteopathy is yet another pseudoscience... Show me scientific proof please.

I think that it is hard to argue that there is not any downside and perhaps some significant beneficial upside to vitamins/supplements while we are in the recovery stage from RT/Chemo. I am not a medical expert nor claim to be, however our bodies have just been ravaged by the treatments and some additional vitamins/supplements beyond what we can digest in our diets (especially with sore throats/mouths) sounds like it makes sense.

I have read the articles about the studies about the dubious value of vitamins/supplements in normal healthy people and it is hard to argue with the data. However our bodies just got the s*** kicked out of it and therefor are way out of whack (not a very scientific description but I think that we all get the point of where I am going)

I would like to read a study about post rad/chemo recovery studies but it would be very difficult (perhaps impossible) based on the variety of variables with the data set.

Worse case with vitamins/supplements in my recovery stage (next 2-3 months) I piss it out of my system (or perhaps some would say piss $$ out of my wallet)

No magnets here, however my wife did give me a bracelet made by Tibetan monks to help guide me through the ordeal.

Gary, you big Naysayer! How did I know you were going to find this post and then rain on my parade?

Good points sir about the unregulated billion dollar industry (over $21 billion) being full of it's fair share of charlatans and people just trying to make a buck. Also on the fact that some brands do not have the amounts that are labeled on the packaging, which is why I'm really glad for Consumer Reports. They did a study on what brands to buy and found that Discount Store brands (WalMart and Costco) were the best route to go. They were the cheapest and matched the vitamin contents listed on their packaging. Thank you Consumer Reports.

Let's remember while these fat (statistically speaking of course) and out of shape real Dr's who know little about nutrition, are telling you to eat a well balanced diet (which I'm all for) they are also prescribing drugs like Vioxx (linked to over 40,000 deaths) that don't have the long term science behind them either. So let's not fall into the thinking that because these people have medical degrees that they are in complete understanding of the human body. Modern medical science is still a very young science with a lot more questions then answers at this point.

Now as there are typically "0" deaths in any given year from vitamins, I think I'll take my chances with them. I'm wondering how many deaths per year prescription drugs cause due to side effects even under a physicians care? I'm going to wager more then 0.

Good points Gary...and magnets? Have you been vaping? Of course not, there's no hard science about the benefits of that...no deaths either...hmmm...ponderous.


Eric

From Cancerhelp UK:

"...Another study called the �Beta Carotene and Retinol Efficacy Trial�(CARET), looked at whether beta carotene and retinol (vitamin A) could prevent cancer in men and women smokers and ex smokers. The people in the trial were aged from 45 to 69. This trial was also randomised and some participants took a placebo pill. After an average of 4 years of taking the pills, there were 28% more cases of lung cancer diagnosed in people taking the supplements. But 6 years after stopping the pills, the risk of lung cancer had decreased and was almost the same as for people who had not taken the supplements."

As with prescription drugs, it's best to take a look at the contraindications before taking them...and get tested for deficiencies before adding fat-soluable vitamins A, D and E.

Fat soluable vitamins are stored by the body, large doses are toxic. Excess water soluable vitamins, such as C, the B's, etc. get excreted.

Also, some vitamins and minerals are more effective if taken at separate times...such as iron and zinc. Beta Carotene combined with vitamins E, C and Selenium can act together to reduce good serum cholesterol counteracting the benefit of Niacin which increases good cholesterol. That same combination of supplements should not be used by people who are taking statins for cholesterol management.

BTW...There is research data that says that men should not take iron unless it is determined there is a deficiency/anemia. Excess dietary iron from animal-based sources can lead to heart valve damage and heart disease. Curiously, iron from plant-based sources is excreted when there is sufficient stored iron. But, dietary iron from animal-based sources is stored by the body despite there being a sufficient amount of iron stored

Don't even get me started on vitamins and especially supplements. As I said earlier show me the proof! If this crap is all they claim it to be then why won't they do the clinical trials with double blind studies to prove it. It's just more trendy bullish*t.

Sandy's right about the beta carotene thing. I remember when, not too long ago, the health food stores were pushing that.

Some well meaning doctors don't do their fact checking either. My MO suggested I take colloidal silver for mouth sores - It would have permanently dyed my skin grey.

Didn't Penn & Teller do a show on this?

Where I love P&T's B.S.! as it's highly entertaining, I wouldn't take it as an authoratative on any of the subjects it has covered. Where they've never done a show on the subject if I wanted to know the views of P&T on vitamin and supplements I'd just ask someone at the Cato Institute (libertarian thinktank)where they get the majority of their expert opinions from (Penn is a fellow there).


As Brian has pointed out before, clinical trials and double blind studies are expensive and who is going to pay for something like that on a product that cannot be patented. Read up on the patent controversy of tumeric for reference.

Speaking of tumeric, it's a good example here as it's a supplement I take and have taken for years. I started taking it right after being diagnosed with cancer and took it all the way through treatment based on the research I had done on it. It tickled me to see the article posted on OCF news (http://oralcancernews.org/wp/the-ma...py-in-suppressing-head-and-neck-cancers/) and it's benefits in conjunction with Cisplatin as I'd had "many" arguements with my MO regarding it. You can imagine the sense of vindication I felt reading that article and emailing to my oncologist..."I told you so!"

Now I understand that this doesn't hold true with every supplement out there (which is why you must research) and I also agree that the average american doesn't need a multivitamin if they are eating a balanced diet (do a Google search on Average American Nutrition and tell me if you think they are eating a balanced diet). The reason? According to The Bureau of Labor and Statistics the average american spends the majority of their free time in front of the T.V. (2.7 hours/day) or socializing while only a fraction (22% of men and 16% of women) participated in sports, exercise or recreation activities.

When you are exercising and using your body, you are tearing it down and rebuilding it increasing the metabolic activities. Your body is burning through nutrients (vitamins, minerals,protiens, fats, carbs etc...) at an accelerated pace relative to the degree of activity you are doing. So the harder you train or the more active you are the more you'll need to consume. You will get to a point the more active you get(as I have, I know I've tracked it) where you won't be able to do it all through a traditional diet...and I eat 6x per day.

Now I liken the healing process after treatment to the most extreme physical training out there so making sure it has all of the rescources it needs to rebuild itself only makes sense to me. Now I've read Charm's post about his physical accomplishments after cancer and I'm proud of him for it, what I'll also point out however is that the Jevity 1.5 he uses is chalked full of vitamin/mineral supplements so why would he need a multi? Knowing how he is I also know he was pretty good about his diet precancer and that helped him lead his active lifestyle, however I wonder if his marathon times couldn't improve if he'd worked with some of the people I have.

I've trained with world class athletes (olympic wrestlers, Abu Dahbi submission wrestler/UfC fighter, olympic boxers) and have seen how nutrition can affect athletic performance so I'll continue to take my cues from them and their trainers as opposed to a medical dr, who I would see if I'm injured or have a medical condition. I'll always take my advice from those that practice what they preach, first hand knowledge has more valuable insights to me.