I look forward to hearing differing veiwpoints on this, particularly from our members who have personal experience with it:

Were you treated in a timely manner?
Was your pain managed well?
Did they use a triage system to determine where in the cue you would be?
Did you get the tests, scans and labwork in a timely manner? Was your treatment state of the art?
Were your chemo drugs up to date?
What was the timeframe from initial Dx to the actual start of Tx?
Is your follow-up schedule acceptable to you?

I could think up more but that is just for starters. Feel free to add to the list.

I start this thread not so much to initiate a debate but rather to educate and find out the truths in the socialized medical care system. Since the US may be headed in this direction it would be informative to learn the weaknesses amd strengths of this type of medical care system.

I'll make this as short as possible:

March20, 2008: Went to ER with sore throat. Antibiotics and see my Dr.

April 30, 2008; Referred to ENT as I hadn't healed with sore throat that looked like strep throat.

May 05, 2008 Seen by ENT and he felt like I had cancer and scheduled test.

May 06: Cat scan

May 13: Pet scan

June 10: Diagnosis SSC in tonsil and gland. Surgery on tonsil and additional tissue in same area.

June 23: ENT Ordered ultrasound on enlarged thyroid glad, came back okay.

July 15: ENT released me to go to radiation.

July 23: Was referred to see Dentist.

August 11, 2008: Saw Oral surgeon.

August 19: Was sent to another Dentist to clean teeth.

Sept. 05, Had several teeth removed on left side (upper teeth)

Sept 12, Oral surgeon released me to Radiation.

Sept 19: Appt with RO for planning and ct scan and mask.

Oct 01, 2008: Saw a chemo Dr and he reviewed my case to determine if I needed chemo and had new test (Pet scan) done again. He found that the cancer had already returned at the BOT on right and left side and in the tonsil area where it was origionally! They had taken so long to get things done my cancer had already returned. Now after I had complained and complained previously about getting things done everyone was in a hurry now to get it done.

October 15: Radiation started for 7 weeks as well as chemo (Cysplatin) once a week for 7 weeks)

Nov. 21 thru 24: In hospital due to effects of chemo and radiation. Low WBCC, dehydration,

Dec. 09, 2008 Completed treatments.

In my opinion I did not receive the proper care in a timely mannor. Do I like my Doc"s, yea Would I have went somewhere else such as CCC if I had more insurance other than medicare, Yes, most definately! I did have IMRT.

What do you think of this time frame? Angel

BTW, I was put out of the hospital without a peg tube, due to low WBCC and the pic they had put in my arm to feed me at home with was removed because medicare would not cover the cost of the food in a bag so called meat and potatoes and was scheduled for a feeding tube at a later dae but my RO said just forget it now as I am through treatments. I have been awfully sick and dehydrated but am making every effore to drink the ensure and drink water and soups, etc. Angel

But, wouldn't it be different from one country to the next? One can't compare socialized medicine in Aruba to Greece or from Greece to France. The systems from New Zealand to England or Canada just can't be compared. Well, I assume this just out of speculation and I suppose socialized medicine depends on how well the medical establishment was prior to being socialized. In a sense our health care system is socialized into two categories, those that pay and those that don't. Although, for those who are covered one way or another will receive better care then the person not covered. I wonder what will happen first, a two class society or socialized health care? I do have to say that having 40 plus million people in the US not medically covered is an embarrassment. Sending money overseas while we have people living without electricity or plumbing or with no roof over their heads is an embarrassment. I believe we live in a great country but some things are just not right. From the beginning it has always been that way from one perspective or another.

I got off subject...sorry.

I hear a lot about the Canadian model and it sounds attractive. I think we will finally see some serious movement on this issue in the next 4 yrs. I hae Blue Cross/Blue Shield and they have been excellent throughout this ordeal, but now they are baulking at ok ing another pet scan. Meanwhile, my wife lost her job and the COBRA coverage is costing us over $600.00 per month, and she has a much higher co-pay on scripts than I have. Health care costs in the USA are just a nightmare for those who have to provide their own coverage.

Ray, I'm a little off topic here, but nowhere is there a list that says "We take care of each problem or objective 100% before we take on the next one". IOW, government and private projects are started and go on and are or are not completed without reference to other projects. Frankly, nothing would get done, otherwise.

One of the reasons why medical coverage is so high is because of the number of uninsured in this country. Now, with socialized medicine we would still pay, but, How much? Socialized medicine is not free medicine, we would pay in the form of taxes. Everyone would be forced to pay into the system, except for those who don't pay taxes. Btw, I do believe that everyone ought to be medically covered with the same benefits that our Politicians get. Whatever benefits they get--we should get. I don't believe we will see socialized health care within the next four years, it doesn't seem plausible to me. Nothing will happen until we start to see the average life expectancy in our country dramatically drop. The U.S. is a lot different then the rest of the world, especially those in the E.U., we're arrogant and we believe our way is the right way until it fails miserably. The U.S. will have to be forced into socialized medical care for the average citizen. And there is no reason why it shouldn't work...it's worked for our military and politicians for decades.

Maybe car insurance should be mandated through the government too. My sister was rear ended and the guy took off.

Angeles.. go buy some Carnation VHC to drink for meals. There are 560 Claories in a can . They say we need about 4000 cal. a day so go for it,, It helped me and a few others here .You might have to order it thru a drug store. I would like to get some too since my Ins quit paying for it. ILet me know what you find out and how kuch per case. Good luck.

Think that's high? My HMO premiums are $1991.00/mo. That's for my wife and I. We are self emplyed and have our own small group plan which includes drugs, vision and dental. She is 55 and I am 61 and age makes a huge difference.

I am interested in comparisons of different countries health care systems. I understand that one of the best is in Sweden but the tax rate in enormous.

If the government here can barely run the DMV, can't control our borders, give phony info on WMD's in Iraq, what makes you think they can run a health care system? I do agree that changes need to be made and the safety net expanded to cover the lower middle classes. It seems that if you have nothing and are completely broke then you can typically get free health care through the county medical care systems and in some counties it can be very good. But if you own a house (even if its "under water") or a car worth more than 4K then you have to divest or sign over your meager assets before Medical will kick in. This group is in the "donut hole" and need the most help. Petey was a good example of that.

I don't think that the average American is arrogant but we certainly have some arrogant politicians - on both sides of the aisle.

Angel -your time frame seems a little long. It was 2 1/2 months from initial Dx to start of Tx for me. Your initial protocol was pretty fast though. I had 2 rounds of antibiotics and 6 months passed before I was refered to an ENT.

I used the word arrogant a little loosely...I was directing that towards those in power. Being stuck at home the last couple of months watching the news didn't help my assessment of the higher ups in our country...Politics, CEO's, Wall Street...Heck, look at the Governor of Illinois. Now, that's arrogance. How about that big time NY investor, possibly one of the largest Ponzi schemes out there, involving I believe $50 billion. When the wealthy start praying on the other wealthy then it's official--we're in a recession.

If I was a criminal it would eat me alive...the ulcers alone would kill me.

Angel and Gary--I was told it couldn't be cancer and also used antibiotics and such from December 2007 to July of 2008 before my ENT took control. My ENT saved my life.

Under the care of my Family Doctor and Oral Surgeon this well insured individual would have died...I trusted them...I trusted them with my life and I was wrong to do so. Following their lead was going to put me in the funeral parlor...I was too young for OC!! Yea RIGHT.

Gary, Yes I agree, My ENT got the job done. No slack on his part at the beginning at all.

Jim, I will do that soon. Thanks, Angel

I am going to be a little mouse who will no doubt be squished...but I feel like even though there are some glitches and it is still the fact that if you have money you can get better treatment, medicines, and care. For the most part I was surprised at the speed of my treatment. I thought it was a little long but I was diagnosed in June and biopsy in July seen by London Cancer Center two days after results from biopsy came in (August) surgery by September 8. I only have trouble with the fact that follow up scans are not done unless "warranted". The nurses that came to my home when I was released from hospital were wonderful. Brought free samples of ensure and a few other brands and all my wound dressings were covered. Payment for coverage is determined by income which kinda makes sense to me. Takes a bit of the burden off of taxes. I am not into politics and such but know that it may not be the best system and yes the wait times in emergency can be horrific. But then if you have seen the bucket list even though it was a movie money or no money sickness is sickness. Death is death and you can't buy your way out of it.

I wasn't much of a news-follower before my first cancer, but it's really on the back burner now (Except when something interesting like the Guv'nor Bagman fiasco comes out!) because it's just not very important in the great scheme of things, esp because there's very little I can do about it -- I have better things to worry about <grinz>.

Were you treated in a timely manner? Yes, diagnosed at end of February surgery April 6th. My radiation did not start until May due to an error by the pathologist (surgeon had pathology completely redone). I belive there are poor pathologists on both sides of the border but once they got the results of the redone pathology, my radiation started within 2 weeks.

2nd surgery I was diagnosed Sept 24th and surgery was Oct 23rd. Chemo drugs were the same as what others here have had, and radiation started again within 2 weeks of the decision to radiate. Once again however a problem arose with the pathology in that it took over a MONTH to get the full pathology post surgery. This is an area which has been clearly identified across Canada and our government is committed to improvement.

Was your pain managed well? Pain managed very well - I have the whole family of morphine, plus patches, t3's, anything that would ease the pain. We have a pain management unit at our CancerCare Centre and people are freely referred there.

Did they use a triage system to determine where in the cue you would be? I don't know the answer to this question. I am not privy to their scheduling practices

Did you get the tests, scans and labwork in a timely manner? Was your treatment state of the art? Tests are done in a timely manner but I think we wait longer to get results. Follow ups range from every month to every 6 months with cat scans as needed.

Were your chemo drugs up to date? I had cisplatin which appears to be common.

What was the timeframe from initial Dx to the actual start of Tx? See above

Is your follow-up schedule acceptable to you? Very acceptable. Not only do I see all 3 doctors frequently, I know that if I ever have a concern I can get an appointment without a problem.

Eg. this most recent lump I discovered on Nov 14th - called Monday a.m. Nov 17th for Appt - Saw surgeon Weds 19th who did the fine needle biopsy that day. Cat scan was the Tuesday 25th (less than a week after appt) = got the results of all of this Dec 3rd. Even after those results surgeon decided to take the lump out so I had an office proceduure Dec 10th to remove the lump Is this longer than what you would expect???


I think the BIGGEST difference is waiting times. There is no doubt that we wait longer for test results and while I personally have had horrid experiences with pathologists, that could happen anyway. Incompetence resides on both sides of the border.


I believe in socialized medicine. I do not feel "more worthy" of care than my neighbour, but maybe that is just how we were brought up. Of all the "rights" that democracies tout, in MY PERSONAL VIEW - the right to medical care should rank well above some more controversial rights (eg to bear arms)


I remember once someone on this board posted that there were "no poor people in their chemo rooms". I cried. That just seems so wrong.

I have also seen people post about whether to bankrupt their family to get treatment. What a decision. I saw Minnie trying to raise funds for what she perceived to be quality care.

Personally, I would just hate to have to deal with financial issues at the same time as I was dealing with cancer.

I should also mention that we have all sorts of support networks that are free to cancer patients - psychosocial oncology, pharmacare which covers prescription costs (depending on your income - if you don't have a plan through work), free yoga for cancer patients, look good feel better programs, etc, etc, etc. There is also home care which came for weeks to do trach care and change dressings (after my first surgery) and a number of other "free" services.

And no, I am not naive. Our health care system is NOT free - we pay alot for it through our income taxes. Interesting point that the U.S. government pays MORE $$$/Person for health care than Canada does but still does not have socialized medicine. Guess thats what happens when you have a profit taking body involved.

And, to deal with the age old criticism of the Canadian health care system - YES, Virginia - there ARE more CancerCare centers in California than there are in all of Canada. There are also more PEOPLE in California than there are in Canada!

It kills me that my American friends are suffering to get health care - working until age of 66 when they shouldn't be to try to keep some coverage, having heart and other surgeries and ending up owing $10,000 which the hospital will deduct from her meager cheque at $50/week. Worse yet, the INSURER decided how long she could stay in the hospital after a main heart valve replacement and double bypass. That decision of theirs caused her to have an infection so severe in landed her back in the hospital for another 3 weeks.

No system is perfect. We are all prone to defend what we are comfortable with. Guess I am doing that, but thanks for listening.

I'll get off my soapbox now!!

Donna

We're on the same page Ray!

Even being told it probably wasn't cancer.

Donna, my objective is to have an open mind here. I don't think thare is an easy solution for the medical coverage issue, especially with the baby boomers arriving in the millions. In the US, Kaiser Permanente is struggling to build new cancer centers to accomodate us - just like they had to build new birthing centers in the late 40's.

I agree - there is no easy answer to the medical systems in either of our countries. Sometimes even throwing more $$$ at a problem doesn't fix it.

I am very hopeful that my good friends who struggle to deal with co-pays or God forbid, NO insurance, find some relief. It is one of my strongest held beliefs that I am no more worthy of health care than my neighbour - regardless of my financial ability to pay - or lack thereof!

I know our CancerCare system is also going to bend and severely strain under the weight of the baby boomers. Our H & N Support Group once had the CEO of CancerCare speak at our monthly meeting - by the end of it I almost said "whew, I'm so GLAD I got cancer NOW!!!"

Donna

This is one of the reasons, I suspect that they are reluctant to order additional scans and tests specifically not in the NCCN guidelines. My MO and I have had many philosophical discussions about this - such as the cost of saving someone for a few years and denying medical intervention for a person who may survive much longer. There may end up being a triage system or even lottery system if the demands get large enough on the system. They already have it for transplants.

We are very lucky that we went through this now. The later "boomers" seem to have the short end of the stick.

Gary,

Unfortunately, our page is a little crowded. Imagine those with insufficient to no coverage and how they are treated. Or, what about those that are dropped before treatments are finished--with follow-ups we all know that it lasts a lifetime.

Donna,

You explained your health care system very well and I assume that both sides have a fair amount of success and failures. I've always believed in socialized medicine, I honestly can't see how any other way is possible. As I said before, I truly believe the U.S. will be forced into it. Having said that, it will get a lot worse then it gets better. Going bankrupt to live is just not morally right...Anyone with common sense and a heart knows that it's wrong. But, when the system enables you to do horrible acts there is a buffer between those that die or are disfigured and those that are in charge. Those that make the rules don't feel it, they don't see it. I sound like a communist but I'm not. I wish everyone had compassion...empathy can be a very good thing and it seems to be lacking.

I wonder how much pull doctors have in both systems? I assume that depends on the doctor. The ball didn't get rolling until I saw my ENT. I saw him on a Monday, made appointment with RO, PET scans on Tuesday, met my MO same Tuesday, biopsy and exploratory surgery that Wednesday(and yes my ENT had the PET scan results), my ENT told me it was cancer that Wednesday. Went over everything in detail the following Monday. My ENT's office scheduled every appointment with all other specialists (except dentistry). He directed the whole process. My GF who is in the health care industry said it was quite remarkable...that her own father didn't get that kind of treatment at a major cancer center. According to a nurse I talked to, she said my ENT seems to be the "Cancer Guy" in his practice. The first time I met my RO he was with us for almost two hours going over everything in great detail, and that isn't including the time with his assistant and nurse. But with all that said, I don't know how I could have done it without my loved ones by my side.

I suppose if you have a lot of money and insurance you'll always have the best care in the world not matter what system is present. It's the average Joe/Jane that needs a helping hand.

I can't feel sorry for all those that opt to have no insurance. For instance I have an employee that has no medical insurance but affords to spend $20 EVERY DAY to play the Lottery. That would buy one hell of an insurance policy for a single person.

I use to have a Bookie in the family and he would say, "I don't gamble, never have and never will...gamblers loose and the house always wins...And I'm the HOUSE."

Gambling is a disease...I've seen it first hand...I've seen people shake looking at the sports section. I've seen guys ruin their lives and the lives of their families. Gambling can be horrible.

If socialized health care would give that lotto gambler health care..I'm all for it. Some things are not meant to be a business, some practices have to come from the heart first and foremost. I may not know what addictions are and how they really feel or how it is wasting my money...But I know what it's like to be poor, I know what it feels like to have no hope...We can't have 40 plus million people not medically covered. We can't have people denied coverage for any reason. It's not right. Morally it's not right.

David,

Do you offer your employees health care coverage?

Gary,

I just remembered that the last time I was in Aruba, my Uncle broke his wrist and had experience with there Health care system.

My Uncle jumped off a rock, landed funny and broke his wrist in more then one place. We drove 45 minutes to the only hospital on the island. All three of us went to the emergency room and waited.

Were you treated in a timely manner? Yes, but citizens were considered before foreigners. Although, I'm sure a life threatening illness would have been taken first. It seemed that everyone in the emergency room was there for scrapes, burns or a broken bone. There was a small child not feeling well--obviously sick, he went first. More then one person came in really bruised up from the "Tunnel of Love" LOL...Funny, my Uncle and Dad were born in Aruba and I've been to Aruba several times and none of us had heard about the "Tunnel of Love" but it wasn't kind to men.

Was your pain managed well? The bone was set, cast put on, surgery was recommended but could wait until we were back in the States, pain pills prescribed. Doctor said a hundred bucks would do...we gave it and he put it in his pocket. We left. When we got back to the states my Uncle had to have the arm operated like they told us.

We have very good friends who live in Aruba, they are not exactly poor. Where do they go for the basics? They get treated in Aruba. Where do they go for any major illness? The United States...I know they've been to NY, Florida and Europe. In Europe our friends are from the Netherlands one of the founding members of the E.U., so I don't know how health care works for them. Well, the husband was from the U.S. and his wife was from the Netherlands..I suppose they had the best of both worlds. Just a long plane ride.

I remember the hospital looking very old and deserted compared to ours. We saw one very tired looking doctor and two very young interns from Holland. They were very nice, but I wouldn't want to be treated for cancer there...at least at that time in 2002.

No, we have looked into it but it's very expensive and believe me restaurants, especially the mom and pop type that can't enjoy the savings of a chain restaurant environment, are not big profit makers. Being a CPA and having a large percentage of my practice devoted to the Hospitality Industry and I consult even the chains on profitability issues, I pleaded with my wife not to open a restaurant but like most husband/wife debates I let her win (lol).

You also have 2 basic types of restaurant employees; one, the servers who make mega bucks, like $40 an hour and two, the rest that are hourly/salaried that make very low wages. The first group is typically high turnover young, single, going to school and spends everything they make before they come back to work the next day. They also could care less about medical insurance. The second group is much more stable but has more debt issues and can't afford medical insurance on top of everything else.

Restaurants also have some very strange Labor Laws that we have to deal with that pretty much creates our 2 tier wage force and if we try to equalize the pay to the 2 groups, we can and will be severely penalized. My perfect restaurant would be where every employee would be paid the same hourly rate because in my opinion every one is just as important than the next but to do that I would have to be a maverick and all my top servers would migrate to all the non maverick restaurants.

It is also a shame that we can't offer a group policy to only those that want it and achieve the benefits of a group without having to pay 50% of the premium.

I assume all health care plans don't include vision, prescriptions and dental. Or are scripts included in all plans?

I work for a large company and our plan choices are determined by location and whether the employee is union or non-union. I often wondered if I was transferred to another area and had to change my plan, how that would affect my precondition with the new provider...If I moved to another county that alone could change coverage. It sure is complicated and scary. Am I stuck in my area due to cancer?

Too bad coverage wasn't determined by a whole industry or county or state or something like that...I suppose that would be socialized health care.

If small companies can't afford health care and large companies are having trouble affording the ever rising costs and as self-employed Gary proved having everything covered is very difficult. If it was socialized health care and we all paid through the form of taxes...Then who makes up the premium difference? Costs just don't drop. What happens to the industry as a whole? Is everything just regulated that much more? More red tape? Forms to fill out? It's complicated now and I can't see it getting easier other then everyone is covered...which I consider a major accomplishment.

I'm sorry I'm going off subject from what Gary originally asked but this subject has a lot of questions within itself. It's huge. Yet, other countries have been successful. within the U.S., SS, Medicare, and Medicaid are all socialized and they are a mess...maybe the whole system has to be one way or another not a mixture of both. Maybe if there wasn't so many choices...it's very confusing, I don't see how it can be fixed. Buying the wrong car is a horrible mistake, buying the wrong health care is deadly.

How long has socialized medicine been around? And was it better before or after the change?

Gary--you have my head spinning with this subject...LOL

Until recently most medical practices consisted of at most three partners, a receptionist and a nurse or a nurse/receptionist. An office visit was within range of the average person and doctors were able to allow a patient to "payout" a bill over time, even for conditions requiring hospitalization. The average person could afford to pay out of pocket and used medical insurance for big expenses thereby not driving up his premium.
Today most medical practices have more categories of employees than a military regiment. Malpractice insurance rates and frustration with insurance and governmental regulations have led to early retirement for many physicians. Diagnostic testing has become increasingly expensive. Hospital costs have risen astronomically. Today only a wealthy person can pay for most medical expenses. When medical treatment can rise into the tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars and even more even the wealthy can not afford the costs.
However, We all benefit from the increasingly effective diagnostic and treatment advances of the past few years. The only aspect of medical care which has not changed is the human. There are still more gifted, caring, well educated and observant medical professionals than the other kind. It is unfortunate that the cost medical care has become so regulated by insurance companies and governmental regulations. It seems to me that the best answer would be to have physician peer approved practices for every specialty with latitude for physicians judgement in certin scenarios. Every physician should be required to participate in at least one specialized "board" and receive on going information about his specialty. There has to recognition that the patient/doctor team is the best source of evaluation of treatment.
No one should be forced to undergo any examinations or treatments (such as mammograms, prostate checkups, etc.) no matter how obvious it is that by so doing money would be saved down the line. Likewise no one should be denied treatment he or a physician feels is neccessary. We have to recognize that not only "medically neccessary" options are important to a patients well being.
How to pay for this?? I am afriad that there is no good answer. It is foolish to believe that any party paying the bill should give out blank checks to doctors, hospitals or patients for every treatment without some determination of standards. The problem is that there will always be bureaucracy and associated red tape.

Ray: Costs do drop when no one has a profit requirement. Some would argue that the profit expense is replaced by bureaucracy expense, but there is already huge overlapping bureaucracy expenses with all the various insurance companies and hospitals performing the same function.

Great thread - love the discussion.

Donna

My last experience with UK healthcare was a few years ago.

My mum had a ruptured bowel which ended with a permanent stoma.. She also had a stroke during surgery.
During the time she was hovering between life and death my father (80) had a complete breakdown in which he stabbed himself 6 times.
He was placed in a treatment facility for 3 months.
Between the two of them I was in the UK for 5 months.
The treatment they received was amazing.. they were they both hospitalized for months. The aftercare, from folk coming into the home to make sure they were both managing, eating properly, making sure their home was suitable for disabled persons, given any aids they needed ...I could go on.
All this at no charge to them.
I know that a big part of that system I would not like e.g waiting for non-urgent care, but, I dread to think how much debt they would have been in had they lived here.
I am firmly of the opinion that healthcare is a right not a privilege.
We are, or were, one of the richest countries in the world, our people should not have to go into bankruptcy because of medical needs.

Medicare can be screwed up but like everything else it's all about understanding how the system works. I am enrolling in Medicare Senior Advantage though Kaiser and it includes Medicare A, B and D it has a vision plan and limited dental for $86.00/mo (that doesn't include the $93.00/mo deducted from my SSDI. The deductible for doctor visits is $25.00 and prescription drugs in the Kaiser formulary, as long as they are generic is $12.00. It is an HMO plan, unforunately some states, like Arizona don't allow HMO's. Then a supplemental plan, like AARP offers, can cut the expenses way down, pays for what Medicare doesn't cover. My dad had both, broke a femur, had cancer and I don't remember paying a dime for his healthcare, even the ambulance rides or PT.

I worked mostly high paying jobs and have been fully vested in Social Security for quite a while and that has helped a lot.

There is some truth to what David says about spending priorities and it's not just on lottery tickets. In the US people buy all sorts of stuff they can't afford at the expense of medical insurance. We have truly become an entitlement society and that in itself is a sickness. I am sure that like the gas crisis, if we ALL share the pain a little then health care premiums can be brought down, much like auto insurance rates have been in California (you can't get a license without proof of insurance). If all small businesses offered health insurance maybe the rates would come down to a manageable level for the rest of us. Maybe a shared responsibility between small business and Social Security, similar to Medicare would be a possible solution. (I'm sure starting to sould like I'm for socialized medicine aren't I?).

People under 40 can get catastrophic care coverage for pretty cheap. When it starts to get expensive is when you go over 40 and really ramps up in the 50's when many chronic illnesses amd self abuse start to take their toll.

I have always love the saying "If I had known that I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself".

There are no simple solutions. Obama is simply not going to be able to reform the system overnight - it might take his whole term if ever...

The USA has had socialized Medicine for years-called the US Military and the Veterans Administration and both fail in their treatment. In the military if one is an Officer they get far better treatment the the Enlisted Solider who does most of the fighting and dieing! Look at what happened at Walter Reed this past year-all the troops living in mold and unsafe quarters were enlisted soliders, not one was an Officer and the VA is no better! I served this country for 21 years and was never injured on active duty and cannot go to Walter Reed yet Senator Obama who never wore the uniform gets treated at Walter Reed! There has to be a better way to deliver health care but not the way the US does it now because using the Military model the rich will get treated first and the poor last and I dont beleive that Obama is willing to give up his health insurance to anyone on this forum! Sorry for the rant!! Semper-Fi Bob