Hi,

Its been about a year and a half since my dad died and I really thought I was moving on with life fairly well. However, lately I dream about his death two to three times a week. It's as if I'm reliving the whole experience. I know this isn't going to sound very manly, but I wake up crying in the middle of the night. It's similar to the grief that I was experiencing right after his death. In addition, I'm dealing with insomnia again, and when I do fall asleep there's a 50-50 chance that I'll have these dreams. I had taken advantage of grief counseling, but I don't know that talking about it any further is going to help. Honestly, I'm tired of talking about it and thinking about. It was a a slow motion real life helplessness that I do not care to relive. My wife suggested I talk w/someon, but it is what it is. There's nothing I can change about the turn of events. Missing someone is a natural emotion and I thought I had come to terms with the reality of his death. I just wonder if anyone else has experienced this type of reprise of emotions, and if there's anything they did that may have helped. I had gotten rid of the occasional use of valium, xanax and ambien, but now I'm finding I need ambien again if I want to help ensure a night of sleep without having these dreams. I don't want to have to rely on that type of crutch though. Am I being closed minded by not wanting to talk w/someone? I hope it's just a matter of time before things get better emotionally, and they have...it's just out of what seems like nowhere that I'm going through more grieving...and it's kind of intense. I'm not a religious person, and I don't look at things and think that everything happens for a reason or per God's plan - so I'm not a candidate for spiritual counseling. If anyone has any thoughts, I'd sure be interested in hearing them. Thanks.
I hate ending things on downbeat. On a positive note, I'm planning on doing some volunteer work where my mom gets her treatment. Hopefully I can bring something to the table that may help someone going through treatment, or a family member of someone going through treatment. Wish me luck.

Hi Didier,
Expressing your feelings is very manly - forget what everybody told you in childhhod - it was a lie.

The grieving process differs with everyone, as much as response to treatment does. It can take years to finally get to the last stage of acceptance. I still think a lot about my parents who passed away 20 and 10 years ago. You never really get over it - there's always going to be a hole there. For years I would reach for the phone to ask my Dad a question about carpentry or something. I have a mentor now who is 80 (duly appointed by my Dad 10 years ago and now I mentor others). Grief is a very personal and lonely process. Venting is a healthy way to deal with it as you are doing here. Your wife's idea about talking to someone, again, wouldn't hurt either. I always feel better once I put things on the table.

I know all about insomnia and sleep disorder - that's why I'm writing this at 1:30 am PDT. I've tried Ambien, Valium, etc. and it doesn't really seem to help much on a long term basis, besides they say the quality of sleep deteriorates with age. Former President Clinton once stated that he only slept 5-6 hours a night (of course that could have been to spend more time in the Green room with Monica ;-)

Volunteer work will be a great outlet for you and is a terrific idea. Giving back in such a way will give you untold benefits and personal healing. You should share your experience, strength and hope in cancer survivor support groups and let people need know it's alright to express their feelings about their losses and that they are not alone.

Sometimes it helps to make a written "gratitude list" of all the things you are grateful for to balance out all of the things that hurt.

Didier,

I'm so sorry you're missing your father this way. I can't imagine. I've been very fortunate to be almost 45 years old and I haven't lost anyone very close to me yet. My Grandparents are still alive. I think talking about it is the best thing, feel free to share it with all of us. Gary, as usual, gives great advice. Hey Gary, from one insomniac to another, I only sleep about 5-6 hours a night.........many times only 4.............and NO, I am not secretly meeting up with Bill!!

I am constantly impressed by Gary's postings. His depth of understanding of many things from the highly technical to the emotional is significant. As to the inability to sleep, I too can relate. I am constantly on a variety of drugs, Ambien and various diazepams to try and get a full night's sleep, but while their impact is there, a full night's sleep never is. Some of this is anxiety related, some of it is related to bathroom visits related to the drinking and xerostomia, some of it is because I just can't shut off the thought process. I will wake at 3AM and my mind will start chewing on a paper or lecture that I have to give in the near future, or to thinking about friends and their cancer issues...which inevitably leads to thoughts of my own medical issues, and anxiety, and it's a vicious circle. I do see someone professionally to try and sort it all out, and of course prescribe the Rx's that I take. I have found that even though I am somewhat able to "reason through" some of this, other parts of it still touch a part inside me that cascades into anxiety. I do miss the tough guy that I used to be, the guy that got through the horrors of the Vietnam experience and so much more. He has been replaced by someone that is aware of the finite nature of my life, and the knowledge that while I can make good decisions about how to approach my future, I cannot with any certainty control it.

Grief takes many different forms. Besides the loss of loved ones, there is grief related to other losses in cancer patients, such as loss of the self that existed mentally or physically before the cancer process. Coping with in in any of its forms is always a process of self discovery.

Didier, I lost my Mom about 8 years ago. To this day, when I use something that belonged to her, I tend to get misty eyed [a recipe in her handwriting does it to me all the time]. I think that if you have had a good relationship with your parents, it is extremely hard to lose them. My best suggestion is to remember and savor every good moment you can when the sadness hits. And reread Gary's post often. Amy

Didier,

I lost my father when I was young and all these years later I too can sometimes have waves of days when I dream about/think about him and feel sad about losing him.

One of my favourite aunts died suddenly when I was in my twenties ( about 20 years ago!) and that still unexpectedly comes to the fore and hurts sometimes as does the death of a friend about 15 years ago.

I guess I'm saying all this because I believe that firstly, as others have said, the loss of someone you truly love never completely goes away and, secondly, I think accepting in some way a heavy sad loss and getting on with your everyday emotional life takes as long as it takes. You may also naturally have some thoughts about your Mom and her cancer and those strong feelings may also be mixed in there with the sadness you are feeling.

It's only my opinion - hope I'm not saying too much - but I think you shouldn't be pushing yourself too hard to feel differently than you do- be kind to yourself. 18 months is not really that long.

Mary

The Native Americans advice on dreams is to practice while awake what you want to say and do in such a situation. When this dream occurs again you will be able to bring it to a better conclusion because you have prepared yourself. If this dream still remains disturbing without you being able to influence the outcome, immediately upon awakening go the window and look outside. All memory of the dream events will be extinguished.

Both techniques have worked for me. In the 70

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate everything you've said and suggested. Gary, Brian is absolutely right about you. You're really something. I too have found myself reaching for the phone to ask my dad a question, and then the reality sets in.
Geez, I'm tearing up as I type this. Anyhow, I can't thank all of you guys enough for your help over the years. I'm really lucky to have you in my life.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Dave

Aaaaah, another one of those nights. 1:24 AM, just reran the last days of my dad's life through my head...and I'm feeling guilty. WTF. I don't know if I ever said this on the forum before, but I guess maybe this is what's bugging me. My father's final words to me were "don't you ever come near me, I'll kill you." He was pissed that I took him to the hospital. He wanted to die at home. The problem was, he kind of lived in squalor, he was at a point where he was incontinent, couldn't walk, was halucinating.
I was burning the candle at both ends and really needed to take advantage of the respite care that hospice offered. Hell, as I've mentioned before, I had to take xanax, valium and ambien just to try to get some sleep. I'd occasionaly slip in an oxycontin to help take the edge off the stress that had built up in my lower back that had brought me to a point where walking became something of a challenge for me. Shit. Perhaps my guilt is making me nuts about this. I'm upset that his goodbye was what it was. I think the lightbulb is finally going on. I guess I do have some issues about this. I had really hoped that there would have been some other words before he died, but he was so agitated at the hospital that they gave him something that put him to sleep and he slept through his death. I suppose that's not a bad thing, I just wish he wouldn't have been so angry when he wasn't medicated and we could have talked. It's odd. He was angry at my sister too. During his final week, he didn't even want her around. He was fine w/me until I took him to the hospital. I didn't know what else to do. He was rolled up in a ball, naked on the bathroom floor. I can't tell you how difficult that was to see and how inhumane it was in my mind to let him stay at home where I believe his condition was better served in a comprehensice medical center. Here I am, reliving this shit again. Damn. It would have been his birthday this coming Sunday, that's been on my mind too. I'm apparently still a little raw so that date and the anniversary date of his death are a little tough for me. 1:44 AM, full of emotion. This sucks.
Try to sleep it off. Goodnight.

Is he from the Depression era? My Dad was, he died from lung cancer when I was 16. He apparently was hiding his health problems & collapsed at work. OMG he was soooo angry at being helped. After treatments at the hospital he stayed home for about 2weeks during Thanksgiving. The hostile expression on his face was terrifying. Again hiding his pain Mom realized he was getting worse and had to call an ambulance to get him back the hospital. I was at school for that, but she was emotional wrung out saying how furious he was being taken that way. He was peacefully med

Dave
My Mom died peacefully in my arms, she was only angry at the cancer not her family, she knew we wanted her home with us...
SO WHY DO I STILL FEEL GUILTY..
Could I have done more? could I have made it easier for her? could I have found better words to say to her? could I have got her home before the pneumonia took hold? my life is full of endless unanswerable questions.
So I think that a period of feeling guilty is part of the grieving process..
May your God walk with you and help you to be at peace with yourself..
Sunshine.. love and hugs
Helen

Didier,
my experience was VERY similar to yours. My dad wanted to die at home and through the local hospice society we were able to do that. I also had to arrange for several caregivers besides myself. Like your father, mine had almost insurmountable medical issues. It was a frightening experience for me. I can barely keep a goldfish alive let alone be responsible for very advanced medical care for another human being. My father was lucid and insistent on dying in his own bed and his lawyer made it clear to me that as long as he was capable of making his own decisions, he was in charge so I had no choice but to provide that. He was equally adamant about not going to a hospital.

My caregivers were mediocre at best (some of them stole property and attempted to embezzle us) and I struggled with guilt for years about not doing enough (like taking him into my home). After years of therapy I was set free when the therapist made it clear to me that my responsibility, as a good son, was to insure that he got the proper care, NOT that I had to do it myself. My father was never angry - just a little scared sometimes. He handled it was about as much grace and dignity as I have ever seen.

As everyone responds differently to treatment, people also respond differently emotionally as well (and that includes caregivers). I was just not cut out to be a good caregiver and many of us aren't. Allow yourself that. You got professional care for him when he needed it - you did what you could. I am sure that he has tremendous regrets and probably wasn't even cognizant of the mean things he said to you.

After my father died the entire house to be gutted. It was "moonsuit" stuff. Talk about biohazards.

It sounds to me like you are still in the grief stage (bargaining phase) and once you find your way to acceptance everything will be ok. I can tell you that this will pass eventually - but it never seems to be on our timetable.

Didier, please find a really good therapist to hash this out with- it sounds like you are getting yourself into a self destructive mode. Not Good! Amy

Some of this is discussed by an authority at MSKCC who is on the OCF board and has helped us create a section on the main site. I am not very good at discussing these matters myself, so I refer you here.

Index of topics at http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/emotional/index.htm

Grieving at http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/emotional/patterns_of_grieving.htm

Didier,
It sounds like you have finally been able to pinpoint why this is bothering you so much, which is good. You did the best you could as a caregiver for your father. The fact he did not appreciate it, is neither here or there. It is unfortunate that he left you with such hateful words, but he probably didn't mean it.

The last 11 months of my fathers life were hell. He was home with my mother and nursing care. This man, who was in this condition because he took off on his walker in them middle of the night to reach his beloved wife who was in the hospital, said some of the most awful things to my mother during those 11 months. I know she knows he didn't mean any of them, but it hurt her. She wanted him at hospice in the end. I think this was the reason. Think about getting some therapy to discuss this. I think you will find that you are not alone. You did the best you could.

Take care,
Eileen

Minky, yeah he's from the Depression era. Gary, thanks again. Your thoughts are always very helpful. Brian, thank you for the links, I browsed through the grieving info and it surely hits home w/me. Amy and Eileen, yep I'm working this thing out. I don't want to do anything self destructive. I really watch myself because I don't know that I necessarily trust myself around certain things (meds or booze) if I'm having a difficult time. I do believe that my dad truly appreciated what I did for him, with the exception of taking him to the hospital. For whatever reason, his final wish was to die at home and I still feel bad that I wasn't able to keep my word regardless that the hospital was the best place for him to be. I'll get over it. I just wish that he would have agreed with my decision and we could have had a hug and a kiss and an I love you as opposed to what was said. It's not the way I wanted things left. I wish I could pick up the phone now and say hey, pop. Can we discuss this?...and he'd probably understand why I did what I did. I don't like breaking promises, but this was one that I couldn't hold up my end of the bargain.
I think he could rationalize that, I hope so anyhow. I honestly did the best I could given the situation. I need to understand that for myself and hope that he would be able to understand that as well. Thanks everyone for your thoughts and for letting me put mine down. It's helping me sort things out. 3:10 AM, oh boy. I haven't been up this late, this consistently, since college.
My education continues thanks to everyone here. Thanks you guys...and good night. I hope you are all doing well. Best regards,

Sleepless in Chicago, Dave

Hello Dave,

Like Gary said he probably would't remember what he said to you. As far as your postings show you did the best you could. Who can ask for more than that? Stand tall "D" you deserve it.

Danny Boy