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midsummer #186850 11-25-2014 03:36 PM
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I have no personal experience with them having had a punch, and an incisional biopsy once myslf, other than the usual FNAB's, surgical biopsies, but thought the article may have included the OralCDx, which is a trade name.

Here is an insurance article that mentions the OralCDx.

http://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/600_699/0686.html


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midsummer #186862 11-26-2014 08:08 AM
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Personally a brush biopsy is a brush biopsy - name aside. That said the issue is this; it takes the surface ONLY. So you may have some dead skin, maybe some fungus - possibly inflammation, but it's what's underneath that may make a difference. My first biopsy came back inflamed tissue (and that was a surgical biopsy). The entire underside of my tongue was red, inflamed and painful but there was no indication of an ulcer or anything. The tumor was inside my tongue. Now it's unlikely this is the case with you as it is painless for you therefore anything going on is likely to be superficial. However. I would do as he says, get the results if they are negative for cancer, then keep an eye on the area, and if it changes go back immediately - if not do the follow up after three months. If you are still concerned after the results go for the punch biopsy on the second.
hugs and hopefully it's nothing.


Cheryl : Irritation - 2004 BX: 6/2008 : Inflam. BX: 12/10, DX: 12/10 : SCC - LS tongue well dif. T2N1M0. 2/11 hemigloss + recon. : PND - 40 nodes - 39 clear. 3/11 - 5/11 IMRT 33 + cis x2, PEG 3/28/11 - 5/19/11 3 head, 2 chest scans - clear(fingers crossed) HPV-, No smoke, drink, or drugs, Vegan
midsummer #186927 11-29-2014 02:45 PM
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I wouldn't trust what Oral Cdx tells you. Brush cytology which is a very old idea, has a way lower success rate of being accurate than you were quoted. It's been used in cervical sampling since the 1940's. There are a variety of issues with it. In my mind what Christine has already said, it's relatively superficial, which MAY be enough, but when it comes to this kind of thing I want a gold standard, black and white answer� what is it? That only happens when the pathologist has a really good representative sample. Part of getting that, you can not get with a brush system, no ones brush and there are several out there; and that is architecture. The layers of the cells from the upper epithelium down to the basal cell layer where all cells including cancer cells are born. When you do a punch or incisional biopsy all these layers are there in the proper relationship, and the architecture of them is intact. When you do a brush biopsy, you get scrambled eggs. A very important bit of information is missing.

I have personally banged heads with the owner of Oral Cdx for years. I think it has its place, for superficial quick looks at things which do not have the characteristics of a high risk lesion. More than that, I'm not a fan. But I butt heads with Mark at Cdx because of their misrepresentation of what this technology will and will not do, and the marketing rhetoric that passes for science in that company. There is a place for brush biopsy in the world of diagnosis (not discovery), but at the end of the day no one moves forward to treatment on a brush biopsy finding. If that is the case (it is), then the only argument for the brush is that it is way less involved, and is quick and to the point - but it is far from the equal of a punch or incisional biopsy which are the gold standards.


Brian, stage 4 oral cancer survivor. OCF Founder and Director. The first responsibility of a leader is to define reality. The last is to say thank you. In between, the leader is a servant.
midsummer #186933 11-29-2014 06:43 PM
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Thanks Brian. The second opinion doctor refuses to do anything until he sees the results from the brush biopsy. He first told me he thought it was fungus then during the brush biopsy visit said it is like a deep pimple. I don't want to hear what they think it is... I've known about it for two weeks and there's no sign of it going away so far.. Is scalpel or punch biospy better? I still haven't canceled the appointment for the punch biopsy on Tuesday. The first ENT said it should go away but had no clue what it was. They both swear it's not cancer but neither have a clue what it is.. I'm still freaked out and could have had answers by now. Do they just leave a hole in my tongue after the biospy? I just worry about infection since I'm allergic to antibiotics and still breastfeeding my daughter.

midsummer #186944 11-30-2014 02:56 PM
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Punch biopsies are anywhere between 3-5 mm in diameter. So from the size of a BB to just a little larger. Most of the time they do not even put a suture in the 3mm punch holes and they heal in by what is called "secondary intent" by the body just fine without need for closure. Most of the 5mm ones do the same, but I have seen surgeons put one suture in for the heck of it. They heal from the bottom up, so do not be alarmed if the hole is still there for a few days. It should not bleed as the clot forms almost immediately and stays put if you don't mess it it all the time. (Most do mess with it, and there is some small blood on your tooth brush etc. for a few days if you do. For sure a fungus can persist for weeks even months, so our hard rule of checking anything that does't heal in two weeks is not an indicator for sure of cancer, but that the thing needs a definitive diagnosis. If it is some kind of viral, bacterial, or fungal infection great, now they know what it is and appropriate treatments can be initiated to deal with it. Scalpel and punch biopsies are equal, and up to the surgeon. A scalpel biopsy will probably take two stitches to close up. It isn't much more radical but the shape of the wound is more prone to slower healing without suturing. Whatever you have done, just gently keep it clean and infection should not be a concern.

Last edited by Brian Hill; 11-30-2014 02:58 PM.

Brian, stage 4 oral cancer survivor. OCF Founder and Director. The first responsibility of a leader is to define reality. The last is to say thank you. In between, the leader is a servant.
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