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#159763 01-06-2013 09:58 AM
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gpk101 Offline OP
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A friend posted this on my FB page last night-Im surprised I've never heard ANYTHING regarding this type of diet. Has anyone had experiences-good or bad-with a low/no carb diet?


SCC right tonsil Dx 14 Feb 03
No surg till Apr 03
Lip resection Sep 05 "frankenface"
Recurr Apr 10
2/3 tongue removed Jun 10
SPEECH/SWALLOW/DROOL challenges FUN!
Dec 10 Tumor @ nodes/larynx/cart artery growing
Erbitux Mar 11 Hyoid bone regrows!?
recur Dec 12
begin taxo chemo
10yrs-still kickin!

gpk101 #159764 01-06-2013 10:02 AM
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There is no way that a diet is going to starve a cancer into remission. The causes of cancer are also very complex cascades of genetic variables, and while eating healthy (not necessarily low carb) is a component to immune system strength, which may improve your chances of continued health, it is not as simple as eating well to avoid cancer.


Brian, stage 4 oral cancer survivor. OCF Founder and Director. The first responsibility of a leader is to define reality. The last is to say thank you. In between, the leader is a servant.
gpk101 #159766 01-06-2013 10:21 AM
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Thanks. I heard talk about it recently, and there ia a clinical trial going on with the Ketogenic diet. I did a low carb diet way back when, pre-cancer days like Atkins, Protein Power, and others. I did not like how I felt while doing this, although you do loose weight, but any calorie restricted diet does too. Excess protein also puts stress on the organs, like kidneys, which eliminates excess ketones in the urine, which need to be checked during the diet. I can't do it now with diabetes, and kidney disease. In regards to cancer, I have my reservations. I'm interested in stem cells these days for Head and Neck Cancer, which is something different.

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01716468?term=NCT01716468&rank=1


10/09 T1N2bM0 Tonsil
11/09 Taxo Cisp 5-FU, 6 Months Hosp
01/11 35 IMRT 70Gy 7 Wks
06/11 30 HBO
08/11 RND PNI
06/12 SND PNI LVI
08/12 RND Pec Flap IORT 12 Gy
10/12 25 IMRT 50Gy 6 Wks Taxo Erbitux
10/13 SND
10/13 TBO/Angiograph
10/13 RND Carotid Remove IORT 10Gy PNI
12/13 25 Protons 50Gy 6 Wks Carbo
11/14 All Teeth Extract 30 HBO
03/15 Sequestromy Buccal Flap ORN
09/16 Mandibulectomy Fib Flap Sternotomy
04/17 Regraft hypergranulation Donor Site
06/17 Heart Attack Stent
02/19 Finally Cancer Free Took 10 yrs






gpk101 #159779 01-06-2013 01:25 PM
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gbk

If you take a look at the clinical trial that Paul posted a link to you will notice that no oral cancer or head and neck patients need apply.[quote] Patients chosen must be diagnosed with advanced or metastatic cancer of the following tumor types (colorectal, prostate, brain, breast, pancreatic, hepatobiliary, melanoma, sarcoma, non-small cell /small cell lung, genitourinary cancers[/quote]).Typically clinical trials deliberately exclude cancers that the researchers believe will not be helped by the diet/drug/device. To me, excluding our cancer pretty much says it all. Never heard of it helping any of us at all.
.
But ketogenic diets are a real blast from the past. Back in the 1920s, when flappers and prohibition were all the rage, the Ketogenic Diet was developed. It became popular again back in the 1990s due to television and movie shows. There is pretty much general agreement that the Ketogenic Diet is an effective diet for children with epilepsy because it reduces or stops their convulsions. It fell out of favor in between these dates because of the development of anti convulsant drugs and medications that mimicked the good effect of the ketones without the bad ones. it's basically a super strict Atkins diet and we all know how that worked out for Dr. Atkins

Still, I understand the desire for a miracle cure. The ketogenci diet is very difficult for adults to follow. One study in Germany enlisted 16 cancer patients and only 5 were able to tolerate it so it has little validity. Their only conclusion was that for the 5 patients who believed in it, it cheered them up, so quality of life improvement was claimed.
But I have to admit, there is a certain attraction of a diet where bacon is a health food.
Charm

Last edited by Charm2017; 01-06-2013 01:53 PM. Reason: lightened it up

65 yr Old Frack
Stage IV BOT T3N2M0 HPV 16+
2007:72GY IMRT(40) 8 ERBITUX No PEG
2008:CANCER BACK Salvage Surgery
25GY-CyberKnife(5) 3 Carboplatin
Apaghia /G button
2012: CANCER BACK -left tonsilar fossa
40GY-CyberKnife(5) 3 Carboplatin

Passed away 4-29-13
gpk101 #159780 01-06-2013 01:42 PM
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Paul, I'd check some of your information. There are several studies showing that Ketogenic diets help kidney function and diabetics.

Here's what I'll say in regards to a high protein and fat diet in regards to cancer as I'm a nutrition nut that's used diet and exercise to rebuild myself after cancer and have spent most of my life studying nutrition.

A diet higher in UNsaturated fats is beneficial for you in several ways metabolically. Omega 3's help insulin resistance, brain function along with numerous other benefits. The higher the percentage of dietary fat in your diet also increases testosterone levels which are crucial in protein synthesis. Lucien is a branched chain amino acid (found in protein) that is responsible for triggering both protein synthesis in the body and is crucial in your bodies immune response.

20% of all cancer patience die of malnutrition not cancer or the treatment of. There are studies that show a direct link between lean muscle mass and cancer survival rates, the higher the muscle percentage the higher the survival rate. There's a reason for this.

When your immune system is activated to fight cancer, and recover from the treatment of, the triggers that activate the immune response also hinder digestion and absorption. As the body is in a hyper-metabolic state the need for nutrients is increased, specifically amino acids (most specifically leucine) to throw at the immune response.

If those amino acids aren't being supplied through the digestive system, the body triggers the catabolic processes of your metabolism to break down it's own lean muscle mass for these amino acids. That's why we lose so much weight going through cancer, the majority of it lean muscle mass. It often leads to cachexia, or cancer related wasting syndrome, and ends up killing the patient.

That's why diet and nutrition are key to maintaining lean muscle mass during treatment. Where I don't believe it will cure cancer it will help you withstand cancer treatment as the only cures for Oral Cancer specifically is surgery or radiation.

Personally I use a ketogenic diet and it's normal for me, it's not for everyone though as it's really difficult for most people to keep to.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/21/news/la-heb-ketogenic-diet-diabetes-kidneys-20110421


Young Frack, SCC T4N2M0, Cisplatin,35+ rads,ND, RT Mandiblectomy w fibular free flap, facial paralysis, "He who has a "why" to live can bear with almost any "how"." -Nietzche "WARNING" PG-13 due to Sarcasm & WAY too much attitude, interact at your own risk.
gpk101 #159784 01-06-2013 02:53 PM
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This study was done in mice, and most others were in heathy individuals not with chronic or late stage kidney disease, but does sound promising. Ketogenic diet is with adequate protein, high fat, not high protein as I thought, but see some nephrologists are skeptical, and will ask mine on my next visit, but I already inquired about any diet to improve kidney function, and said nothing will help the damage already done, and just continue what I'm doing, and I'm fine with that. Mt Sinai where this study was done is one of my cancer/ENT hospital's, but I go elsewhere for the kidneys.


10/09 T1N2bM0 Tonsil
11/09 Taxo Cisp 5-FU, 6 Months Hosp
01/11 35 IMRT 70Gy 7 Wks
06/11 30 HBO
08/11 RND PNI
06/12 SND PNI LVI
08/12 RND Pec Flap IORT 12 Gy
10/12 25 IMRT 50Gy 6 Wks Taxo Erbitux
10/13 SND
10/13 TBO/Angiograph
10/13 RND Carotid Remove IORT 10Gy PNI
12/13 25 Protons 50Gy 6 Wks Carbo
11/14 All Teeth Extract 30 HBO
03/15 Sequestromy Buccal Flap ORN
09/16 Mandibulectomy Fib Flap Sternotomy
04/17 Regraft hypergranulation Donor Site
06/17 Heart Attack Stent
02/19 Finally Cancer Free Took 10 yrs






gpk101 #159814 01-06-2013 11:04 PM
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Paul, this is just one of several studies done on the topic actually and I used the link to the article more to show how extreme some of the ketogenic diets are to follow than for the link to the kidney/diabetic benefits. It's an interesting topic if you follow nutrition science.


Young Frack, SCC T4N2M0, Cisplatin,35+ rads,ND, RT Mandiblectomy w fibular free flap, facial paralysis, "He who has a "why" to live can bear with almost any "how"." -Nietzche "WARNING" PG-13 due to Sarcasm & WAY too much attitude, interact at your own risk.
EricS #159828 01-07-2013 06:27 AM
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Thanks.


10/09 T1N2bM0 Tonsil
11/09 Taxo Cisp 5-FU, 6 Months Hosp
01/11 35 IMRT 70Gy 7 Wks
06/11 30 HBO
08/11 RND PNI
06/12 SND PNI LVI
08/12 RND Pec Flap IORT 12 Gy
10/12 25 IMRT 50Gy 6 Wks Taxo Erbitux
10/13 SND
10/13 TBO/Angiograph
10/13 RND Carotid Remove IORT 10Gy PNI
12/13 25 Protons 50Gy 6 Wks Carbo
11/14 All Teeth Extract 30 HBO
03/15 Sequestromy Buccal Flap ORN
09/16 Mandibulectomy Fib Flap Sternotomy
04/17 Regraft hypergranulation Donor Site
06/17 Heart Attack Stent
02/19 Finally Cancer Free Took 10 yrs






gpk101 #159894 01-08-2013 09:38 PM
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gpk101 Offline OP
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Wow-thanks, guys for all the info. I am more surprised to have not heard ANYthing regarding this (no matter how difficult or "pie in the sky") and can agree that while it does seem like looking for the holy grail, I'm genuinely perplexed that there isn't more intelligent (non-hype)information. It seems to me that more than a few times progress has been made by re-looking at "proven unworkable" solutions.


SCC right tonsil Dx 14 Feb 03
No surg till Apr 03
Lip resection Sep 05 "frankenface"
Recurr Apr 10
2/3 tongue removed Jun 10
SPEECH/SWALLOW/DROOL challenges FUN!
Dec 10 Tumor @ nodes/larynx/cart artery growing
Erbitux Mar 11 Hyoid bone regrows!?
recur Dec 12
begin taxo chemo
10yrs-still kickin!

gpk101 #159896 01-09-2013 12:37 AM
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Well of the numerous things that I feel I've learned from Brian and his science nerd ways is that large scale double blind peer reviewed studies are needed to get that type of information. As those studies are not by any means cheap to do (I know I got to see the price tag of one this summer with Brian at the NCI), it's hard to get them done when you are talking about food without having a sellable product afterwards that is going to be profitable enough to both pay for that study and then some, or at least that's how I understand it.

There is just so much we don't know about the human body..even what we think we know is suspect. Take Seasonal Affective Disorder for example. We have a "disorder" and antidepressants to treat it with. From my point of view it's not a disorder it's the bodies natural reaction to less light, which produces Vitamin D, which new studies link to testosterone production (it's a prohormone sterol...name says it all folks) and studies show a direct link between low testosterone and depression. (I played connect the dots a lot as a kid)

It would explain why people indigenous to colder climates are effected less to that disorder though wouldn't it? They tend to have fish as a staple in their diet, fish do not metabolize vitamin D, which is a fat soluble vitamin that is stored by their system, which we consume and metabolize and put to good use.

Most vitamin D supplements however are isolates made from manipulating wool with UV light and I've read where there are questions if we metabolize that very well, as it seems to cause toxicity issues when supplementing vitamin D as opposed to getting it from eating fish.


Can I prove any of that without a study? No. But it's plausible. Welcome to nutrition 101 smile

Last edited by EricS; 01-09-2013 12:42 AM. Reason: always spelling

Young Frack, SCC T4N2M0, Cisplatin,35+ rads,ND, RT Mandiblectomy w fibular free flap, facial paralysis, "He who has a "why" to live can bear with almost any "how"." -Nietzche "WARNING" PG-13 due to Sarcasm & WAY too much attitude, interact at your own risk.
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