Hi All,
I'm new here and have been busy reading lots of old posts to get ideas and was interested to read here and there of others, like me, who've found that bananas are now for me the demon food. Does anyone know why that is, what is it in bananas that makes them react so badly with my poor ole throat?? I tried a bite of one when I was in my 3rd wk of chemoradiation and it was a steep learning curve of what was to come in terms of my changing palate!
I am keen to enhance my nutrition as at present I'm solely able to have peg overnight feed of a 'lighter' version than the one I originally had when in hospital as that made me vomit and have diarrohea, so the calories are less. As I lately seem to be losing the ability to eat much, I am now also having 3x ensure a day too. One thing I feel I am helping myself with is to take a probiotic but perhaps that's just old habits as I used to be a dead keen juicer and health freak with my diet, all salads and soya etc, but would now gladly eat anything if I could.
Can I just say that I've learnt so much in such a short time over the last few days reading posts here. I soooo wish I'd found this site before I started my treatment, it would have helped me cope so much better than I did going through the treatment. Thanks for all the ideas and sound advice

Hey Lynne
I am in London and maybe just a week or two infront of you. Interestingly I have been a veggie for a month or two now. Every thing including H2o is through the Peg for now. But i have so got my appatite back since Chemo stopped. I would love to be back on the ice cream diet, I have started putting sugar in my tea and coffee Ihave one a day and a horlick at night, every calorie counts. I too struggle with the UHT feeds and was sick a few times. I have found I can cope with a very slow feed through the nigt starting the day 800 calories to the good. Ensure nice flavours 3 spread out from morning till afternoon. Then a faster feed on the machine in the evening.
I am tlod not to put Tea or Coffe through PEG but it is what kept me going when the Feed would not stay down. I try to keep the PEG clean and flushed.
I bought 4 excellent cook books today in anticipation of being able to eat soon enough. I too think the probiotic yogurts must be doing some good. I sucked on a slice of tinned peach lovely till the sugar hit the back of my throat, no way, stay away from the bananas.
A light soup watered down blended and sieved feels like a slap up meal. I am away to have my Original Horlicks with full fat milk, Full English will have to wait.

I found bananas were one of the first fruits I was able to eat after rads. I used to only eat banana yogurt and loved banana milk shakes from Sonic. This is another example of why we always say 'everyone is different'.

Kris too, has no problem with bananas. He has a banana smoothie daily. One of the few "things " he can get down.

Bananas were the first fruit I was able to eat post Tx, not counting cans of cold fruit cocktail. I loved them pre Tx and I still eat them almost daily. Great for my post bike ride. One sliced banana, choc syrup and milk, blended just enough.

Thanks for all the replies guys, so far bananas 3 against 2 for...we're all different, so true. Acid to me, manna to you..anyhow the idea of eating some tinned mixed fruit is now lodged in my head...ummm...must try it out when I'm feeling brave enough. Not today, as couldn't even manage water this afternoon for a few hours as my throat was on fire after, get this, I took my usual (since June) numbing med!! No rhyme or reason to this.
Nice to hear of somebody a bit closer CKeith and all the detail of your feeds - very interesting. I haven't tried any hot drinks yet, though I used to be a regular teapot, can't quite believe I've gone 4 months without a single cuppa. Now horlicks takes me back to being a child, perhaps that'd be worth a try. I think I've got a bit stuck in a groove and could do with branching out and experimenting a bit more. I love food usually and it's pure fear holding me back. I know when I just started the chemorad I could eat tinned peaches and ice cream and so had it nearly every day but haven't tried it since coming out of hospital. My throat was in a bad way when I finished treatment as the skin broke down externally and I had a hole in the front of my neck but I've been very lucky as it healed up really quickly and there's no sign of it now. I only do one o/night feed so must try and eat some more as I'm still losing weight, slowly but surely, down from nearly 12 stone to 9 and a half now (5'6"). I can't manage to swallow the nutricia drinks as my throat reacted so badly, so they too go down the peg. Apart from the throat reaction I'm not sure I could have continued to swallow them as they taste just like heavy metal don't they???
I've been veggie most of my adult life with a few forays into pescatarianism (is that a word or a sentance in itself??) but find I'm sooo hungry when I smell any food cooking and that includes meat!!
I have to go to Aberdeen next week for a repaet Pet/CT scan so will be gald when that's out of the way and results are in. Do most on here have to undergo this as a means of ascertaining if they are clear of cancer?
Lynne

All,
To me bananas are evil. They leave my thoat scratchy.

Hi, Lynne
It took my husband a while for bananas to work. The earliest fruit that worked for him were canned, sliced peaches blend in protein shakes. If you mix up your own protein shakes you can likely make them taste less awful(at this point) than the goo in the bottles. When he was just out of therapy, a shake would consist of milk, a packet of breakfast drink mix (in our case, Carnation Breakfast Essentials - vanilla), a few slices of canned peaches, and some Benefiber. As the swallowing got easier, he added whey powder, cooked oatmeal and fresh apples to the mix - along with spices - and still drinks that for breakfast today. I would encourage you to experiment a bit - we had some epic failures, but some successes, too.
Maria

I found chocolate milk and also yoo-hoo to be very soothing to my sore mouth and throat while I was going thru rads and recovering. Chocolate milk was especially helpful to me when I was trying to eat food that seemed overly spicy. It cooled the burn.

Another option is to puree some other fruit that you like - strawberries, peaches, etc with ensure or boost and some milk and ice and frozen yogurt. The rest of the stuff masks the taste of the boost, but you still get the nutrients from it. I use bananas in the smoothie, but don't like them on their own.

I know you all are going to disbelieve me but banana's which I love BTW - are by nature acidic... the sweeter they are the more acidic they are.

Well Cheryl, you certainly got a believer in me on that one!!
Thanks for input from you all..scratchy Hockey Dad's with me on this one then.
Good ideas Maria, Christine and Tina, many thanks, however to throw a spanner in the works, I'm finding milk makes my mucous start up a treat. I could drink it up to when the rad treatment was about 3 weeks in but then this mucous started. Since ending treatment and in the weeks when I was able to eat a wee bit I had a horrible experience one day with a yoghurt - immediate blisters and then a week later I tried a miniscule amount of grated cheese on some boiled spinach and that was agony for a day and led me into this period of not really eating hardly at all. I discussed it with my GP and the dietician and they think I may have developed a dairy allergy/reaction. This makes some sense to me given my experiences. So I have found almond milk and coconut milk to be ones I can manage without too much issue. I'm not willing to try dairy milk, yog or cheese again just now.

Do you all find that if one leaves the throat space to heal that it helps or do you feel one should push on through? My oncologist said that the necrotic tissue in the throat needs abrasion (i.e. lumpier/ rougher food) to be dislodged and I should get on and eat again. My dietician felt that was wrong and that if in pain I should ease up. Not easy when your team disagree on the fundamentals!
Off to bed now, night all,
Lynne

You can swap the milk for ice or sorbet to ditch the dairy. That might help (not a fan of milk myslef much these days).

I can't see how irritating your throat further can be helpful, as it will just stop you from eating/drinking. It's far more important to get nutrition that you can manage, and work your way up from there. Maybe something with seeds (raspberries might work). Then there's a bit of friction but nothing crazy.

Thanks Tina, yes pain is a real turn off to wanting to try and eat. I've seen the speech therapist for the first time since I last posted and she also agreed it made sense to lay off if the pain is that bad. Some days for 3 or 4 hours I could just bang my head against a wall (I don't as it happens, but could!!).
Have you found raspberries to be helpful yourself? When I could eat more, in my ready brek or by juicing, I've found melon, pears and blueberries to be good and not too irritating. Sally (under my intro post) has advised me to leave the skin on when juicing melon which I wouldn't have thought of myself but will now try when I next feel bold enough to juice.
Bye
Lynne

I have been forcing some food that irritates for the nutrition factor, and I feel better as a whole (although not the throat), so that's why I do it. The seeds are irritating but not too bad. I'll try the melon skin. I hate pears, so I haven't gone there.

I am an addict of juiced fruit and veg now. I intake much more veg (carrots, broccoli, lettuce, cabbage, spinach etc)now than I used to eat so I feel my diet is so much more healthy. I have a fruit juice first thing in the morning and a veg drink before supper. If the taste/tartness is too strong diluting with water helps enormously. Its important to experiment. Pineapple although had good healing properties is very acidic so is one to avoid until your throat is able to cope with it.

Raspberries I still find very tart. I used to love pears but I don't find they juice particularly well. Sally

I agree the amount you can get for your daily fruits and veggies from juicing is way more than you would ever be able to eat raw. I start with a base of carrot juice and put everything else in the blender to get the fibre also. My husband actually asks for the shakes now because he feels so much better not eating junk food and sugar. He no longer runs when he sees me coming with a large glass. I also drink one once or twice a day, very filling.

It always appalls me when people talk about their nutrition on the forums, it appalls me even more when I read what dietitians and Dr's tell their patients about food.

I was traveling this weekend and was talking to a graduate student in nutrition and a Dr (a clinical professor from NYU) about nutrition actually and unfortunately schooled them both to their own admission. The issue with these two sources is that one is not the familiar with the other field of study. The average dietitian would have no clue what happens metabolically in a cancer patient, and the average Oncologist knows sh!t about nutrition. Just like GPs are horrible at the effects of drugs systemically, they hear most of what they know from their drug rep and pray the Pharmacist catches any "F" ups. Yes I am a cynic and bitter...

Anyway I am a huge advocate of proper nutrition and it bothers me when I read people going through treatment packing so much sugar, junk and worthless calories into their body when they need to be thinking of it like a race car and supplying it with the highest octane fuel to win the race.

Quick Fact: 20% of "all" cancer patients die of malnutrition, not cancer nor the treatment of.

Probiotics are a great addition to any nutrition plan as it is going to increase digestion and absorption, processes that are inhibited the hormone responses happening in the system of cancer patients. When our bodies immune response is activated, the process actually inhibits proper digestion and absorption, adding to it the elevated cortisol levels brought on by the stresses of cancer (cortisol is the called the "stress" hormone as it's what the body produces as a fight or flight response to stress, quick fact:cortisol counteracts insulin further adding to the digestion absorption issues in the cancer patient) and you have a recipe for disaster, especially considering your body is already hypermetabolic due to fighting cancer and trying to heal from the effects of treatment.

Due to the disruption of insulin caused by the cortisol, you really have to look at the average cancer patient as a diabetic and steer away from processed sugar and simple carbohydrates, meaning really watch most canned fruits (due to syrup) and fruit juices from concentrate as they are heavily processed and really basically just sugar water.

I'm a fan of juicing fresh fruits and vegetables, but during treatment the lions share of calories should come from fats and proteins. The weight that we lose during treatment is lean muscle mass due to metabolic changes and the immune response. Due to the difficulty eating and the bodies hyper-metabolic state, it will begin to catabolize lean muscle tissue into amino acids to throw at the immune response. Quick fact patients with higher percentages of lean muscle mass have higher survival rates in cancer, coincidence? Not likely, so logic tells me the goal for nutrition during cancer treatment is to sustain lean muscle mass. Logic would also tell me that if that's the goal then the best nutrition program would come from those who understand sports nutrition Thankfully I am that person, and you are welcome because I'll help you if you need. Brian has actually volunteered to be my guinea pig as after spending some time with me this weekend he realized the photos of my bicepsaren't photoshopped and I really am built like a truck in real life.

To begin with the program you need to religiously track your nutrition (soon OCF's app will do that for you) religiously and know your macro-nutritient breakdown and percentages. Calories just aren't calories folks.

To begin with, think of everything you eat as not only providing vitamins and minerals, but also to control hormone response. Complex carbohydrates to regulate blood sugar levels (40% of your total caloric intake) which is key due to the hindered insulin levels described above. 35% good fats (mono and poly unsaturated fats) with a high ratio of omega 3 fatty acids (omega 3's help with insulin resistance among a multitude of other benefits), the higher percentage of fat in your diet, the higher your testosterone, the hormone responsible for maintaining lean muscle mass and crucial in protein synthesis in the body. Finally 20-25% protein (or 1-1.5 grams per pound of body weight), preferably whey protein as it has the fastest uptake of any other form of protein and full of all the essential amino acids your body, and immune response needs.

Now arguably the most important amino acid needed is Lucien as it's the branched chain amino acid identified to trigger protein synthesis in the body. I actually recommend adding a "BCA" (branched chain amino acid) supplement while in treatment to help keep that important lean muscle mass. I would recommend printing out my response and giving it to your medical professionals or dietitians...they can verify it for accuracy, they actually get paid to know this sh!t.

Hope it helps, and yes...you're welcome.

Eric

Oh I forgot. When you have a diet higher in dietary fats it will cause some nausea so work with your Dr on the right dosage of nausea meds.

Ok..one question. What would be a dietary fat? I mean I think of fat as bad. What are you talking here? Honestly you are speaking a language many of us don't undersatnd but I get part of it and know what I do understand I believe cuz' I've seen it in Kevin. He was very muscular when he started tx and even with what they hit him with he did very well. He ate scrambled eggs cooked in butter every day just about the whole way through tx. Sometimes for 2 meals.
Kathy

Ok..one question. What would be a dietary fat? I mean I think of fat as bad. What are you talking here? Honestly you are speaking a language many of us don't undersatnd but I get part of it and know what I do understand I believe cuz' I've seen it in Kevin. He was very muscular when he started tx and even with what they hit him with he did very well. He ate scrambled eggs cooked in butter every day just about the whole way through tx. Sometimes for 2 meals.
Kathy

I am doing a little experiment of my own. I to cannot handle most of the fruits, bananna's with vanilla yogurt whipped up in the blender is just right for me. I really should't drink anything or eat anything the Doc's say for the rest of my life, but I see most posts that say during treatment swallow at least something. I am thicking my water to chase the smoothy down. I only get about 3 or 4 sips down but to me this is so wonderful I can't explain. I mostly put everything through the peg, but am hoping little by little I will be either a veg which I hear is easier than other type of eaters. So banannas are good for me.

Kathy!!


GREAT QUESTION!!!! Fat isn't bad, in fact you need fat in your diet!!! Just not "Saturated Fats!!" Nuts are full of fat, the good fats poly and mono unsaturated fats and they are fantastic for you! In fact the Walnut is said to be the "healthiest" nut due to the ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids and it's antioxidant content!

See you're learning here...it's exciting!!

Olive Oil (just not raised I believe 350 degrees F as that when it becomes bad for you) , flaxseed oil (highest in Omega 3 content for oils I believe) etc are great for you, just know how to cook with them.

FYI, your body can run entirely on a diet of protein and fat and low carbohydrates as it forcing your body to convert fats into fatty acids and keytones for energy instead of carbs, it's called a ketogenic diet AKA the Atkins diet. The benefit of this diet is that instead of notifying the body to burning on simple sugars and making you hungry it instead breaks down the bodies natural "stored" body fat for energy.

This is actually easier to do liquidly and to me seems the perfect way to treat Oral Cancer patients in particularly. It's really the grant proposal I'm working on for OCF to test in a University setting. I'm sharing with you the fruits of my research.

You see if you liquify fresh fruits and vegetables to get your vitamins and minerals (making them easier to digest and absorb in the process and vitamins and minerals in food are easier absorbed then by the Isolate Vitamins & Minerals in the Ensure's and Boosts or vitamin supplements. Add good fat in the form of blended nuts or added oils etc and then add your protein via powders and blend.

This is my diet actually as I don't eat solid foods. Anyone who's seen me has seen the benefits and I have test levels to prove my results to my testosterone levels on this diet have gone up (After treatment I am type 2 hypogonadal meaning radiation damaged either my pituitary or hypothalamus glands to not produce the LH hormone needed to produce testosterone in my boys...yes I just admitted to the fact I have "sexual" dysfunction...but only affecting my sterility...not my ability if you know what I'm saying...you know what I'm sayin

Anyway...keep the questions coming I'm on a roll

After reading that I'll explain even more. You see when your body is used to producing energy from simple starches and sugars, when it get's "hungry" it will burn the quickest burning fuel available to it...which is lean muscle mass actually. This is why when you see a starving person or depleted cancer patient they look "flappy" They have stored body fat but no more muscle. If you give your body enough protein and Leucine (amino acid that triggers protein synthesis) it will sustain your lean body mass during treatment.

Kathy the eggs and butter was a great diet by the way. Butter is a medium chain triglyceride that is absorbed differently than most other fats and is readily available for energy without spiking blood glucose levels. The egg is a fantastic source of "the gold standard" of protein (all proteins are measured against that of the egg which if memory serves me right has a biological value of 93). Full of vitamins and minerals too.

Fantastic Maestro Eric, your posts are wonderful. I've been following them for a while and I always learn something new. I admit to becoming nutrition obsessed since starting on this voyage. I continue to be horrified by the lack of interest in nutrition from the medical staff.

I'm doing well on nuts and oils, juiced and blended fruit and veg, and probiotic yoghurt. I've moved to only organic diary products. But I am still struggling to get enough protein and complex carbohydrates. I bought a whey protein powder which is horrible so only slowly using it up before trying another one. I can only seem to find large expensive products. I wish the producers would make taster size packs!

Can you give examples of where to get the right nutrients. What is a good source of Lucien? What do you recommend for good complex carbohydrates?

I now need to start upping my muscle building exercise regieme, but I think better start another thread on that, while you are on a roll!

I can't wait to get the OFC app which I think ill be a fantastic resource. At present I am using the MyFitnessPal calorie counter, which is very useful but doesn't always give enough nutrient detail. Cheers Sally

OK now focus on old people like Charm and I. Why can't I ride like I could 10 years ago, hell even 5 years ago? My weight is the same now that it has been for many decades but my engine just ain't the same. ugh

David, you naturally lose 1% of testosterone production per year after the age of 30, then between 1-2% a year after 40. There are ways to promote testosterone production depending on the individual

Sally,

I use FatSecret's app "Calorie Counter" as it gives a good breakdown of your macro nutrients and has a huge database and easy tools etc.

I would recommend taking a BCA (Branched Chain Amino Acid) supplement that you can find at Amazon.com actually (use the OCF Amazon Link as we get a 5% kickback!) as what you are really wanting is Leucine (a BCA) to trigger the synthesis process.

I use oatmeal as a complex carb that I add to my shakes. A typical shake to me will include juiced fruits and vegies, protein powder, oil or nuts, water and oatmeal. I measure and track everything

Oh, David, recovery is also important more now than when you were younger so make sure you are getting plenty of rest. As we age we tend to sleep less and less.

Oatmeal, is excellent I have a large bowl of porridge every morning. Unfortunately I can't use the OFC Amazon link as I'm in the UK. A shame as I buy a lot through amazon.co.uk. Any chance that OFC could arrange the 5% kickback with them.

Sorry Lynne I have gone a long way off track from bananas! Sally

Just had my test checked and doc said at the top of the range. I sleep appx 8 hrs a day. Ugh I need that Fountain of Youth spring thing!

;o)

Where is this post going?

Perhaps it's run it's course and someone would like to start/ carry on the thread on the very interesting advice we've been getting re nutrition??
Sally since reading your post to me, I've ordered whey powder and a selection of ground nuts to try with my ready brek...so it seems I may be following a bit of what's being advocated here....ha still going to steer clear of those bananas tho! Thanks all who've replied on this thread and I'll be very interested to read more nutritional advice under a new thread.

Lynne, you could also try blueberries in your ready brek, before or after cooking. Let me know if your whey powder is OK. Mine is horrible so looking for recommedations. Hope you get some improvement in your throat pain soon. Sally