Gary,

On one hand, I agree with you. 5 minutes to throw a can of food in a bowl is such a small thing. How can someone not find the time to do this?

On the other hand, many days I didn't have an extra 5 minutes when caring for Heather. And I didn't have 5 dogs, 3 cats and 2 kids to care for at the same time. And my younger daughter was here helping a lot of the time. And I wasn't trying to keep up with school either.

I know recovery is rough on most oral cancer patients, but there are various degrees of roughness. Very few people on this forum experienced the difficulties that Heather did and although I don't think Harry's condition is as bad, I do think it sounds like he is in worse shape that most of you were.

Personally, I am not an animal lover, but my kids have had pets over the years and I "inherited" 2 of them when the kids moved out and couldn't/wouldn't take the animals with them. Although I didn't like the situation, I still took good care of them. They were fed and watered daily, brushed and bathed, had rabies shots and flea treatments and I tried to give them loving attention even though I didn't always feel like it. I would not neglect an animal for any reason, but when it comes to choosing between the animal and a family member, the animal comes last.

Cindy deserves credit for realizing that there is nothing more she can do for these animals and the humane and loving thing is to put them out of their misery. If you read her post, she says they have medical problems and they are suffering. Would you think it kind to allow them to continue to suffer? She has tried to get people to take them. She has tried to get Harry to do the right thing. The vet has advised her to have them put down. What more do you think she should do?

In other matters, I agree with everyone who has suggested that Cindy get the family to help, but it sounds to me like this is a very dysfunctional family and in that I have a lot of experience. I had an alcoholic father who sounds much like Harry, in the stubbornness department anyway. (I am not suggesting that Harry is an alcoholic.) My mother was an enabler. My brother, son and son-in-law are alcoholics. My younger daughter and several cousins suffer/suffered from depression, manic-depressiveness, bi-polarism, etc. One cousin is in jail for killing her 3 year old child. She had 7 children and would never even acknowledge the oldest as a human being. To her, he was not a "he". He was an "it".

Sorry, I get off-track, but the point is I think I can recognize a dysfunctional family and I believe Harry's family fits the bill. Harry's attitude alone suggests to me that his relationship with his kids is probably not the best. For someone who doesn't come from a dysfunctional family, it is very hard, almost impossible, to understand the dynamics involved. There are issues that most of you could never imagine. So other than some friends, I think Cindy really is pretty much on her own. She is doing the best that she can. And if the dogs have to be put down, give her credit for having the guts to do the right thing. And if Harry can't deal with it, well, maybe Harry has to get his priorities straight. This woman is stretched so thin, it is a wonder she can continue at all. It is a testament to her love for this man that she takes his crap and still manages to find the heart to do the right thing for his animals.

Some people just can't be reasoned with. My dad was one of them and I think Harry is another. He can't see past the nose on his face. He probably will be angry about the dogs and Cindy will have one more burden to carry. I just hope in time he can see what a treasure he has in her. Or maybe she will see that her love for him is a one-way street and she will cut her losses. However this all plays out, one thing is clear. This woman needs and deserves our support.

Rosie

To answer your comment Gary....

It takes more than 5 minutes to feed them. They have to be watched because one of them is so voracious when it comes to food he will eat the other's food. These dogs are 60-75lbs. each. 2 are male and when they are left alone with the food there is a blood bath. One of them is missing a chunk of ear for that very reason.

They are not allowed in the house for a number of reasons.... they pee on every wall and piece of furniture, they will fight with each other, I am never home because I am at the hospital or trying to deal with my life...

The dog that bit my son was not provoked.... he has bitten me and Harry's daughter... he is just a very territorial animal.

Your response is exactly the one that I will get from Harry and you have NO IDEA how hard this is for me... I can only hope that Harry will understand...

Dogs...animals in general are affectionate I agree... but they do not give unconditional love.... no one and nothing does that....

But I can tell you that ... NO DOG CAN EVER LOVE HIM THE WAY I DO....

My children are hurting and acting out in school, our business is all but gone, we are now officially FLAT BROKE, and I worry about whether or Harry will be here next year...

The last thing I can do right now is also worry over these dogs... which I have done nothing but taken great care of over the years....

They cost a fortune to medicate and feed, and they require time I do not have... I will not allow my children to be harmed by them under any circumstances. They are both over 16 years old, they are half blind, cannot hear... one of them has a body covered with benign tumors (some as bigger than softballs) which makes her walk funny, she can hardly lift herself from the ground and often I have to help her up, the other has hip displasia and a bone chip in his muscle and when he tries to stand and eat his whole back end shakes out from under him..... they cannot stand up for more than a few moments, they canot walk on a leash, and often they refuse to eat....

There just comes a time when all creatures reach a point when the quality of life is so poor that there is nothing we can do...

This is not something I have decided lightly nor is it based on some minor inconvenience... It is just the way things are...

I tossed and turned all night in bed last night agonizing over this decision... I now must get dressed and do this even though it pains me very deeply....

Maybe now you will understand....

The other large dog my stepdaughter and her husband are taking and the beagle and the pom will stay with us.....

I am not doing this with any sense of relief.... it is a necessary evil that I must do for the sake of all in my family including the dogs themselves...

Cindy

Cindy
You are doing what you have to do regarding the dogs.There comes a time when it is time and there is nothing that can be done. Especially when your resources are limited. I am an animal lover and think maybe that Harry's reaction to keeping his elderly pets alive is due to his facing his own feelings of being fragile. When this is over he will realize why you did what you had to do. I might ask the vet for a statement of his opinion to justify and support putting the dogs down. Put it away and when Harry questions your judgement you can prove that the Doc thought it was best in a concrete way. Bob wouldn't let anyone else around when he was sick. I was blessed that his mother came from South Carolina on an already planned trip and stayed for two days so I could get away. The only break I got and I will forever be grateful to her. I know this is not an option for you. I totally understand the dysfunctional family thing. I have four step siblings. Three of whom have brought my parents nothing but heartbreak. They are there looking for help when they needed it but like Harry's daughters never there when my Dad has been sick etc. Unfortunately we can't pick our relatives and we can't fix them when we got em. The board is a great resource but isn't there a caregiver support group at the hospital or a church or mental health organization. I know you are over whelmingly busy but even if you could take an hour once a week to be with others rowing the same boat it might help. I think it is safe to assume you will find the same caliber of people there as you have here. Is the social worker at the hospital aware of you circumstances financial and emotional? There are some very good ones and they can be can be great resources. Just like Dr's if you don't click with one worker ask to speak to someone else in the department.YOU REALLY SHOULD BE HOOKED INTO THEM. The same goes for your kids at school. The social worker there should be checking in with them to make sure they are ok and offering support. If you don't like the social worker at thier school, ask if the nurse,assistant principal or someone you do feel comfortable with can keep an eye out for them and be there to check in. You are doing great considering but I think you could use some flesh and blood human support. There is no rule that says it has to be family.

To quote you
"But I do bounce back and I never stop forging the forward path."
That's what it takes, you can do it you are already doing more than you thought you could. D.

Cindy: I am a pet lover & My cat is like my kid so I understand Gary's point, but I agree you have to set priorities and thatis what you are doing. Everything takes some time & you are overwhelmed right now and time is something you don't think you have. I understand.

I again urge you to ask people for help - the Stepdaughters certainly, but I like Dani's suggestion, too, about social workers. Ask at the hospital, but also call and talk to the school nurse or psychologist or counselor or Vice principal. Tell them what is going on in your life and ask if they can recommend a social worker or something to help.

Rosie is right, I think, your family does sound dysfunctional and with each dysfunctional family is almost impossible to understand the dynamics involved since the dynamics are unique. I too come form a dysfunctional family (which is one reason I think my brother trys to stay in control so much - control equals no chaos. That said, I echo Roise's point about offering support. I think everyone who has posted here is concerned about your situation and if offering helpful suggestions. It is easy to offer advice from several thousand miles away (like me in California), but it is well meant and I think you have received some good advice (espec. above asking for help). Take a deep breath, know that all of us, including Gary & his dogs, are concerned about you, and try to utilize some of the suggestions. I am sending a big hug your way, hang in there! Candace

Something else to consider is this Cindy: Every poster on here is either a caregiver or a patient. I had four children living at home during my treatments, 17, 13, 11, and 9. We had all the usual family issues to deal with, life issues to deal with, PLUS mom was pretty darn sick. We all made it through. So will your family. But it will be much harder for your children and for Harry if you don't find a way to manage your day to day life better. Caregivers need to care for themselves, I am well aware of that, I've been a caregiver my entire adult life. BUT, they also must CARE for the others involved and I feel like you're struggling to fill that job because your focused so much on how this whole experience makes you feel. Friends, blast me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to be insensitive but I am trying to redirect Cindy's focus.
Minnie

This is going to sound wrong I am sure but I am going to lay this post to rest. I have obviously not expressed myself as I thought I was trying to do.

Just to make sure that this is understood. 99% of everything I focus on is either my husband or my children and even then my children sometimes get the short end of the stick.

The 1% of my time that I allow for focusing on my own feelings is here in this forum or with my therapist. It is such a miniscule amount of time that refocusing is not really necessary.

I am in no way trying to give the impression that my life is any harder than anyone elses. I just thought that one of the benefits of a forum like this was to share my feelings with someone... anyone so that they don't just eat me alive.

In the original post I said that I expected no replies... I was just very frustrated and it was a terrible day and I just needed to get it off of my chest. I did that and in the process I seem to have started something that has morphed into something it wasn't supposed to be.

I have made my bed and I now lie in it... I will pay whatever the price... but I know that I did the right thing and I have support for this decision from many places.

The reality is that I can no more get others to carry the burden of taking care of things than I can take the pain and suffering from Harry. I spend most all of my time with him trying to make him as comfortable as possible. But I am not the one who is sick and I am painfully aware of that every moment of everyday.

If I could take it from him I would.... It would be better if it were me and if given the choice I would take his place without hesitation.

I just wanted to share my thoughts and feelings and hardships with someone and there was no one to call or write to so I posted here. Just the act of writing it down helps to place everything in perspective.

I suppose that I can just write in a private journal from now on and that will allow me to avoid offending others.

You have no idea how very hard it was to do what I had to do today and I know that I may have just signed my divorce papers. Yes, as hard as it may be to believe my relationship has always been dependant upon those animals. He will hate me forever and I accept that. I just could not watch them suffer anymore. There is enough suffering going on around here and it is not fair. Paticularly for Harry.

I realize that every feeling, emotion, thought, everything pales in comparison to what he is expperiencing and dysfunctional or not my family should not have to carry the burden that we have to.

It is no ones fault that he has cancer but it would be easier if there was someone to blame. In the absense of that we struggle to deal with something that consumes lives.

That is the harsh reality and I am fully aware of it all the time.

I guess I just thought that sharing with people who understand these feelings would be helpful. But maybe no one else has experienced my feelings. I don't know.

What I know is that I do not have time to do much of anything. By the time I finish taking care of everyone else there is nothing left. Even if I wanted to I am too damn tired. I am told over and over that I need to take time for myself. Well that is what I do here. I take time to share myself which is supposed to make me feel a little better. But it doesn't always work... and besides what difference does it make if I feel better or not. It is not my disease, remember?

These things I know... I am here, I am reliable, I am caring, I make sure that everyone in my life gets what they need, I am the person that everyone turns to and I have never shied away from that responsibility.....

I am the person I think I am supposed to be and that is all I can be...

Sometimes that means that I have to make difficult and very unpopular choices... That is just how it goes. I exhausted every other option for the sake of trying to preserve Harry's feelings. I have to tell him about this but I can't now. He is in the hospital very weak and he cannot even control himself.... I look at him and I am broken by what I see... Harry is doing what he can... and I am standing with him every step of the way no matter what happens.... Hopefully he will understand but if he doesn't there is nothing I can do.

There is no manual for this. I can only go by what is happening in our lives. Unfrotunately, here in this forum you will only get one perspective and that is mine. That is because it is the only one I have.

So I am sorry if I seem insensative, uncaring, and cruel. I am trying to keep life in some sort of order while having no control over where it leads.

So I will lay out for a while and read more and say less. Somehow I will find a way through and so will Harry.

I listen always to the advice given here and an enormous amount of it has been exceptionally useful. It is obvious that I am contributing little to nothing so I will end.

With Deepest Apologies,
Cindy

Minniea: You are not wrong nor insensitive, and you are right, Cindy does need to take care of herself and asking for help is one way to do that.- Candace

Minnie
You know I luv ya for everything you do here, but How much someone can care for others is limited by our personal physical and emotional strength and support. Yes it is expanded by the people who can care for them and you exponetially. When that number is very limited then you have to try to care for all the others and everybody, primarily the sick person..etc and for you...all at once. guess who comes last?...I think we are just Cindy's primary resource am I reading this wrong? worst is when you are accussed of being selfish. Because this isn't about you. You are not sick. While you are grateful for any improvement you see in the one you love you usually have to swallow a whole of hurt to get there. The bottom line is why we are here Caregiving can really suck but if you find others for who it sucks...then maybe it doesn't suck so bad.

Deni,
I didn't mean to imply that anyone was being selfish. I don't know if it's possible to be selfish where cancer is concerned?? I know when I was going through treatment I still had to take alot of care for my family, without that responsibility I might have sunk even deeper then I did. Focusing on how THEY felt and needed me gave me strength. No one should ignore their feelings but at the same time we can't surround ourselves with them either.
Cindy venting here is fine, and needed I'm sure. I was just trying to give her options to make it easier for her and her family.
What part of Conn. are you from??? I spent weeks during the summer in Enfield where my grandparents lived. They moved to Florida for a few years but just moved back to New Berlin, just outside of Hartford.
Take care,
Minnie

Cindy,

1. You do contribute here. Please do not stop posting. Just being able to read about the feelings of other caregivers is a help to some. Many people may have the same feelings as you, but do not/can not express them. By reading your posts, they have an outlet for their own feelings.

2. When I said the family was dysfunctional, I meant Harry and his children, not you and Harry. I'm sorry if that comment hurt you. Although if Harry would actually divorce you because of those damn dogs, I think dysfunctional might be an appropriate term for your relationship also.

3. I know some people think if you have the time to write all these posts, you should have time to feed the dogs, time for yourself, etc. But I know it is different because I also used this forum as my support group. My postings may have had a different tone, but the purpose was the same. It gave me an outlet for my feelings. I have said more than once that it was this forum that kept me sane while I was losing my daughter to this horrible disease. And I mean that. I don't know how I would have made it through without these people. It is true that I came here for a lot of advice on medical issues, but I also came here to pour out my heart knowing these people would understand. Everyone should have the right to express themselves here. Especially people like you who have very little support otherwise.

4. I totally understand when you say Harry doesn't want other people to help. Heather didn't either. And I couldn't blame her for feeling that way. After all, I wouldn't want a dozen different people bathing me, wiping my behind, cleaning gobs of gunk from my oozing neck and certainly not wiping drool from my mouth and changing my diaper when it got to that point. I needed to help her retain as much dignity as was possible and if that meant doing almost everything myself, then so be it.

5. Some people here have said that when going through treatment, they were mean to their caregivers, as it seems Harry has been to you. They seem to think this is alright. And maybe to a degree it is. After all, they are going through hell. I guess they have a right to be angry about it. But why would they bite the hand that feeds them? Why get angry at the very person who is trying to help you? The one who loves you enough to put up with all your bullshit? Maybe I have trouble fathoming that because as bad as it got for Heather, she NEVER lashed out at me. She never really lashed out at anyone. She had a couple visitors that she really didn't like and didn't want to see, but she was still cordial to them. Only once did she actually say she really didn't feel up to company and turn someone away. But that was because they called first. If they had just come to the door, she would have allowed them to visit anyway.

Even when she decided to move back home with me (before the recurrence) because she was afraid of choking during the night and didn't think her husband would know what to do, she felt bad because she thought it might hurt his feelings. She apologized to him for doing what made her feel more comfortable and safe. And it wasn't because she was a nice little goody-two-shoes who allowed people to walk all over her. She had a temper and an attitude as big as Texas. She believed in telling it like it is, with no holds barred. Maybe she was just humbled by the cancer, by the realization that she might actually die. I don't know how or why, but she managed to keep her temper in check, even when lying there all but paralyzed and helpless as a newborn babe. Maybe that is why I don't think it is alright for the patient to vent their spleen on their caregiver. Maybe that is why I think Harry sounds more like my dad, who was just an insensitive son-of-a-b____. And why I sympathize with you and your plight.

Well, now that I have poured out my heart in your defense, maybe someone can criticize me and take the heat off you for awhile. After all, I have used this forum as a crutch for a long time now. Heather has been gone for 1 1/2 years now and I am still here. I haven't gone back to work. I haven't written my book. I'm not really contributing much to anyone or anything. It doesn't even make me feel good to be here, because it keeps the pain of losing Heather fresh. If anyone here is a nutcase, I'd say it is me. So come on people, jump down my throat and tell me what I should or shouldn't be feeling or doing. Please tell me because I sure as hell don't know.

The one thing I do know though, is that this forum is here to help patients and caregivers both and I think some of you are giving Cindy short shrift by treating her as you have.

Rosie